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Debates Forum

  1. 15 Oct '10 18:02
    The fabian strategy is the only pragmatic way of implementing reform.

    discuss.
  2. 15 Oct '10 18:03
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    The fabian strategy is the only pragmatic way of implementing reform.

    discuss.
    Reform of what? Productive capitalism?
  3. 15 Oct '10 18:11
    Originally posted by IshDaGegg
    Reform of what? Productive capitalism?
    Any reform, be it on social security, market regulation, etc.
  4. 15 Oct '10 18:25
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    Any reform, be it on social security, market regulation, etc.
    Probably not. Ask the Tea Partiers.
  5. 15 Oct '10 18:30
    Originally posted by IshDaGegg
    Probably not. Ask the Tea Partiers.
    The tea parties probably have no idea of what the fabian strategy even is, they're after all quite an uncultured bunch.
  6. 15 Oct '10 18:37
    Gradual reform does appease those afraid of change, and while it may not be the most effective, it may often be the most electorally feasible.
  7. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    15 Oct '10 18:45 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    The fabian strategy is the only pragmatic way of implementing reform.

    discuss.
    At the crudest level - since the Fabians were gradualists rather than revolutionaries - I'd say that is correct. But Fabianism has meant different things at different times (the original Fabians supported imperialism in pursuit of global justice, for example, and the moral worth of such a strategy today is surely in question; they were also apologists for the USSR, the Webbs publishing the awful tome Soviet Communism: A New Civilisation in 1935), so beyond their gradualist approach, it's difficult to see what is meant by 'the Fabian strategy'.

    Whether the conditions for early-twentieth century social democracy and, later, British corporatism still exist is also an important question.
  8. 15 Oct '10 18:47
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    The fabian strategy is the only pragmatic way of implementing reform.

    discuss.
    you're pro socialist now?
  9. 15 Oct '10 18:48
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    The tea parties probably have no idea of what the fabian strategy even is, they're after all quite an uncultured bunch.
    Maybe, but they are angling for reform in non-Fabian ways. If they succeed, it will disprove the thesis advanced.
  10. 15 Oct '10 18:59
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    you're pro socialist now?
    This isn't necessarily about socialism (the thread title isn't very appropriate, I know), its about the success of gradualism over drastic changes.
  11. 15 Oct '10 19:04
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    This isn't necessarily about socialism (the thread title isn't very appropriate, I know), its about the success of gradualism over drastic changes.
    gradualism is a stealth technique to achieve the same goal in the end. the fabian society little emblem pretty much sums it up. a wolf in sheeps clothing.
  12. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    15 Oct '10 20:17
    Originally posted by DrKF
    At the crudest level - since the Fabians were gradualists rather than revolutionaries - I'd say that is correct. But Fabianism has meant different things at different times (the original Fabians supported imperialism in pursuit of global justice, for example, and the moral worth of such a strategy today is surely in question; they were also apologists for the U ...[text shortened]... social democracy and, later, British corporatism still exist is also an important question.
    Gradualism surely makes more sense than sudden revolution. A revolution would have to be defended by the armed faction, which in turn would enforce the regimented, hierarchical conditions the revolution sets out to eliminate. Which is to say that the means cannot be divorced from the ends. A peaceful and democratic society cannot be built by violent and repressive means. You inevitably end up replicating, in society, the means you utilized to get there. So a peaceful and democratic society must be built gradually by peaceful and democratic means.

    The mistake that is typically made in relation to gradualism is assuming that it necessarily applies to political democracy. Political institutions are not instruments for change, either gradual or otherwise. They are, almost without exception, defenders of the status quo. If the goal is to build a more egalitarian economic system, then it is a catastrophic error to assume this goal can be reached through a top-down approach via a political democracy. That sort of change can only be reached in a bottom-up fashion by working directly in the economic system itself. Build one worker owned business at a time and gradually those changes at the ground level will work their way up through the system. The political institutions will eventually follow suit, but that change will merely be a reflection of a society that has already shifted from beneath it.
  13. 16 Oct '10 01:00
    Originally posted by rwingett
    [b]Gradualism surely makes more sense than sudden revolution. A revolution would have to be defended by the armed faction, which in turn would enforce the regimented, hierarchical conditions the revolution sets out to eliminate. Which is to say that the means cannot be divorced from the ends. A peaceful and democratic society cannot be built by violent and rep ...[text shortened]... here. So a peaceful and democratic society must be built gradually by peaceful and democratic means.
    Would you call the American Revolution a gradual and peaceful path to democracy?
  14. 16 Oct '10 01:02
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    The fabian strategy is the only pragmatic way of implementing reform.

    discuss.
    I am confused. Are you promoting gradual change as the best approach and/or are you promoting the fabian ideas for change?

    Can you lay out the fabian ideas for change, or at least, what you think they are?
  15. 16 Oct '10 01:09
    The Fabian Society is a British intellectual socialist movement, whose purpose is to advance the principles of social democracy via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary, means. It is best known for its initial ground-breaking work beginning late in the 19th century and continuing up to World War I. The society laid many of the foundations of the Labour Party and subsequently affected the policies of states emerging from the decolonisation of the British Empire, especially India. Today, the society is a vanguard “think tank” of the New Labour movement. It is one of 15 socialist societies affiliated to the Labour Party. Similar societies exist in Australia (the Australian Fabian Society), Canada (the Douglas-Coldwell Foundation and in past the League for Social Reconstruction) and New Zealand.

    The group, which favoured gradual incremental change rather than revolutionary change, was named – at the suggestion of Frank Podmore – in honour of the Roman general Quintus Fabius Maximus (nicknamed “Cunctator”, meaning “the Delayer&rdquo. His Fabian strategy advocated tactics of harassment and attrition rather than head-on battles against the Carthaginian army under the renowned general Hannibal Barca.

    http://seeker401.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/the-fabian-society/