Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriberbadradger
    Scallywag
    the pie shop
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    23 Oct '18 11:41
    Why are most Americans so against a National Health Service
  2. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    23 Oct '18 12:32
    @badradger said
    Why are most Americans so against a National Health Service
    I'm in favor of a public option as long as you don't outlaw private pay, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask, but to answer your (simple) question simply:

    1. They're worried about the tax hikes that will be necessary to pay for it.

    2. They're worried about government inefficiency in managing it (people think of DMVs and passport offices when thinking of government bureaucracy).

    3. Many people think that if you give the government a chance to muck something up, they're going to inevitably muck it up. This attitude borders on religious devotion in some circles.
  3. Behind the scenes
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    23 Oct '18 13:391 edit
    @sh76 said
    I'm in favor of a public option as long as you don't outlaw private pay, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask, but to answer your (simple) question simply:

    1. They're worried about the tax hikes that will be necessary to pay for it.

    2. They're worried about government inefficiency in managing it (people think of DMVs and passport offices when thinking of government bure ...[text shortened]... they're going to inevitably muck it up. This attitude borders on religious devotion in some circles.
    Normally I would go along with this, but when corporations such as insurance companies (who I deal with on a daily basis) must first think about the insured's health as a profitable commodity, the health of the individual frequently takes a backseat to the corporations bottom line, and the corporate bean counters frequently view someone as being worth more dead than alive.
  4. Joined
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    23 Oct '18 13:43
    @sh76 said
    I'm in favor of a public option as long as you don't outlaw private pay, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask, but to answer your (simple) question simply:

    1. They're worried about the tax hikes that will be necessary to pay for it.

    2. They're worried about government inefficiency in managing it (people think of DMVs and passport offices when thinking of government bure ...[text shortened]... they're going to inevitably muck it up. This attitude borders on religious devotion in some circles.
    1. They're worried about the tax hikes that will be necessary to pay for it.
    they should google how the tax increase would be much lower than what they pay on premiums

    2. They're worried about government inefficiency in managing it [...]
    they should google how much of their money is spent on current bureaucracy

    3. "Many people think that if you give the government a chance to muck something up, they're going to inevitably muck it up."
    They should google ways to make nukes and military private. Privatize the police and the fire department. Let companies own the roads.
  5. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    23 Oct '18 13:54
    @mchill said
    Normally I would go along with this, but when corporations such as insurance companies (who I deal with on a daily basis) must first think about the insured's health as a profitable commodity, the health of the individual frequently takes a backseat to the corporations bottom line, and the corporate bean counters frequently view someone as being worth more dead than alive.
    This is going to sound harsh and no doubt certain people with short attention spans are going to click thumbs down and move on, but under any system, some form of bean counters are going to have to weigh the relative values of people's health relative to the good of the whole. You can't assign an infinite value to each human's health in a system of finite resources.

    It's really a question of whether you want the bean counters to be corporations, with Medicare/Medicaid backup or for the government to be the first and last word on these determinations.
  6. Standard membervivify
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    23 Oct '18 14:21
    @badradger said
    Why are most Americans so against a National Health Service
    Conservatives are afraid a public option competing against private insurance would affect profits. Being in the pocket of Big Business, they've invented all manor of made up concerns to stop it, such as (and thus ab actual quote) The Affordable Care Act being the "worst law in human history".

    Basically, evil conservatives convinced stupid conservatives free healthcare is wrong.
  7. Germany
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    23 Oct '18 14:29
    @badradger said
    Why are most Americans so against a National Health Service
    They have been indoctrinated by propaganda paid for by people with a vested interest in keeping the failing health care system in its current state.
  8. Joined
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    23 Oct '18 14:36
    @vivify said
    Conservatives are afraid a public option competing against private insurance would affect profits. Being in the pocket of Big Business, they've invented all manor of made up concerns to stop it, such as (and thus ab actual quote) The Affordable Care Act being the "worst law in human history".

    Basically, evil conservatives convinced stupid conservatives free healthcare is wrong.
    This is a straw man argument -- virtually no one cares about the bottom line of insurance companies. People do justifiably worry about the cost of making it a right to fully insure everyone and how government has a history of being insanely inefficient and how any new system would have huge implementation costs and might put those with insurance in an inferior position such as longer wait periods or being less of customer for your doctor.
  9. Joined
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    23 Oct '18 16:02
    @sh76 said
    This is going to sound harsh and no doubt certain people with short attention spans are going to click thumbs down and move on, but under any system, some form of bean counters are going to have to weigh the relative values of people's health relative to the good of the whole. You can't assign an infinite value to each human's health in a system of finite resources.

    It's real ...[text shortened]... edicare/Medicaid backup or for the government to be the first and last word on these determinations.
    And when the bean counters are the government, you have no more recourse.

    They ARE the law.
  10. Subscriberbadradger
    Scallywag
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    23 Oct '18 16:03
    @kazetnagorra said
    They have been indoctrinated by propaganda paid for by people with a vested interest in keeping the failing health care system in its current state.
    I ask this because all my life I have enjoyed almost free healthcare, obviously I paid my taxes and NI contributions , I have no private insurance , I know the NHS has problems but having recently needing their services I would hate to live anywhere were money came before healthcare.
  11. Behind the scenes
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    23 Oct '18 16:102 edits
    @sh76 said
    This is going to sound harsh and no doubt certain people with short attention spans are going to click thumbs down and move on, but under any system, some form of bean counters are going to have to weigh the relative values of people's health relative to the good of the whole. You can't assign an infinite value to each human's health in a system of finite resources.

    It's real ...[text shortened]... edicare/Medicaid backup or for the government to be the first and last word on these determinations.
    This is going to sound harsh and no doubt certain people with short attention spans are going to click thumbs down and move on, but under any system, some form of bean counters are going to have to weigh the relative values of people's health relative to the good of the whole. You can't assign an infinite value to each human's health in a system of finite resources.


    I agree, but if one takes away the profit motive, the system becomes a bit less cold blooded for the sick and injured. Not to worry though, this is America and corporations are God's. Corporate profits will always "Trump" the health of the masses. 😏
  12. Joined
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    23 Oct '18 16:11
    @badradger said
    I ask this because all my life I have enjoyed almost free healthcare, obviously I paid my taxes and NI contributions , I have no private insurance , I know the NHS has problems but having recently needing their services I would hate to live anywhere were money came before healthcare.
    American veterans already have "free" health care.

    Take a minute to study that health care system. Many opt out and pay for it elsewhere. Also look into the Arizona VA scandal where veterans were simply not treated because they were too sick to treat and they did not have enough resources to help them.

    How often this happens God only knows. It came very close to being swept under the rug.

    But that is the health care system Dims want for everyone, no recourse and no voice.

    I know of a lad who joined the military, had health problems and they told him he needed emergency surgery. Well he had the surgery, a surgery he was later told by a civilian doctor he did not need, and it screwed him up for life. He only live about 7 years later because it screwed him up so bad.

    Oh, and once the military learned he was damaged goods, they simply pushed him out. They made his life hell and he did something stupid, he went AWAL. But, hey, he was young and stupid and being mistreated. And then once they discharged him from the service they denied him health care.

    He saw some JAG lawyers but they just snickered and said that this was a nation wide epidemic and good luck getting any money out of the government cuz they are the law.

    This is what they want for us all.
  13. Standard membervivify
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    23 Oct '18 16:19
    @quackquack said
    This is a straw man argument -- virtually no one cares about the bottom line of insurance companies. People do justifiably worry about the cost of making it a right to fully insure everyone and how government has a history of being insanely inefficient and how any new system would have huge implementation costs and might put those with insurance in an inferior position such as longer wait periods or being less of customer for your doctor.
    a) Learn what a straw man argument is

    b) Republicans being slaves to Big Businesses like insurance companies is no secret
  14. Joined
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    23 Oct '18 16:26
    @vivify said
    a) Learn what a straw man argument is

    b) Republicans being slaves to Big Businesses like insurance companies is no secret
    What we need are health care accounts for Americans that are tax deductible so that they don't need to go crying to government or corporate America for health care.

    I have a friend who needed a medication twice a day, but Medicare would only pay for it once a day. The doctor just shrugged his shoulders and told him to get if filled for once a day, but use it twice a day and they will try and get more frequent refills.

    That's health care fraud, but what are you gonna do? It was either that or let the man die or fight the mountain of bureaucracy to get him what he needed.
  15. Germany
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    23 Oct '18 16:43
    @quackquack said
    This is a straw man argument -- virtually no one cares about the bottom line of insurance companies. People do justifiably worry about the cost of making it a right to fully insure everyone and how government has a history of being insanely inefficient and how any new system would have huge implementation costs and might put those with insurance in an inferior position such as longer wait periods or being less of customer for your doctor.
    If you make it legal for insurance companies to bribe politicians, they will.

    As you well know, the U.S. has the least efficient health care system out of all developed nations.
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