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  1. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    17 Oct '15 22:16
    A mother and father whipped their 19-year-old son to death with an electrical cord during an all-night spiritual counseling session triggered by his desire to leave their church, a a New York court has heard.

    Lucas Leonard was subjected to a 12-hour ordeal by his parents, sister and fellow church members at the Word of Life Christian church in New Hartford, New York, on Sunday, police and witnesses alleged.

    His 17-year-old brother Christopher was also beaten and was admitted to hospital in a serious condition.

    The parents, Bruce and Deborah Leonard, are accused of manslaughter. At a court hearing on Friday, a judge ruled there was sufficient evidence to sustain the charges.

    Four other church members, including the victims’ 33-year-old sister, Sarah Ferguson, have been charged with assault. Their hearings will be held later. All six defendants have pleaded not guilty.

    Church deacon Daniel Irwin testified at the hearing that he saw Lucas bleeding and in apparent agony. “Lucas was rolling himself back and forth on the floor and making a sustained, monotone moaning,” he said.

    He said he received a text message after services ended at 8pm on Sunday saying the Leonard family would be part of a counseling session with the church’s pastor, Tiffanie Irwin, his sister. Irwin said he was not told what the session was about and didn’t participate.

    Watching through a window at around 10pm, Irwin said, he saw Bruce Leonard hit Lucas up to six times with what appeared to be a belt and hit Christopher. The young men winced, Irwin said, but Lucas did not try to defend himself.

    Their mother hit Lucas with a cord out of anger over “things that he had said”, investigator Todd Grant testified. He said he had not asked her what those things were. A neighbor, James Constantine, said Lucas had talked about moving on and had mentioned that he might join the army. Another investigator, Jason Nellis, said the mother told police the group took turns hitting Lucas and holding him down.

    Irwin said that around 10am on Monday panicked church members ran up to him and said they thought Lucas was dead. Irwin said he dashed into the church to find Lucas lying motionless on the floor, and Lucas’s father and brother and Irwin’s mother, church spiritual leader Traci Irwin, trying to resuscitate him. Lucas was taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead.

    The defendants include Daniel Irwin’s brother, Joseph Irwin. Asked after the hearing whether Daniel Irwin or any additional relatives could face charges, the Oneida County district attorney Scott McNamara said prosecutors “are looking at everybody that’s involved”. He later said he anticipated more people could be charged. Traci and Tiffanie Irwin have not been charged and have not commented.

    Bruce Leonard’s attorney argued during the hearing that prosecutors had not proved the couple intended serious injuries to their son. Deborah Leonard’s lawyer said the mother felt helpless to stop an “intervention” that she had not expected to become so harsh.

    The roughly 30-year-old Word of Life church once had perhaps 40 or more members but now counts closer to 20, authorities said.

    There are thousands of small, independent Christian churches around the US, many of them following a very strict fundamentalist theology, said David Bromley, a religion professor at Virginia Commonwealth University. Their beliefs can lead to strong resistance when a member wishes to leave, he said.

    “If you get into a very conservative group where there is only one way and God’s wrath is about to be unleashed on humanity and we’re the faithful remnant, then leaving the group is a very serious condition, from the point of view of members,” Bromley said.


    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/17/new-york-church-beating-teen-whipped-word-of-life
  2. Zugzwang
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    17 Oct '15 22:301 edit
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/14/church-s-faith-healing-killed-this-baby.html

    "Church's 'Faith Healing' Killed This Baby"
    --Samantha Allen (14 October 2015)

    A white American Christian couple's conviction for manslaughter has been upheld.
    The devout parents had refused to take their premature newborn child to a hospital.
    If they had done so, one doctor estimated he would have had a 99% chance of survival.
    To this day, the parents insist that they did nothing wrong and have no regrets.

    I suspect that some 'pro-life' Christian Americans here also approve--in the name of
    Christian religious freedom--of what these parents did in allowing their child to die.
  3. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    18 Oct '15 13:50
    Good Evening, I’m Will McAvoy. Today is Monday, August 8 [2011].
    And this past Friday, for the first time ever, Standard and Poor’s downgraded the credit rating of the US Treasury. You would think that would be tonight’s top story. Or you might think it would be the Dow closing down 634 points on its worst day of trading in 3 years. Or the austerity riots in Europe. Or any statements of the Republican candidates running for president. Or the President himself. But it’s not.

    Tonight’s top story is a woman named Dorothy Cooper.

    Dorothy Cooper is a 96 year old resident of Chattanooga Tennessee and has been voting for the last 75 years. This year, she has been told she can’t. A new law in Tennessee requires residents to show a government issued photo ID in order to vote. Dorothy Cooper doesn’t have a driver’s license, because Dorothy Cooper doesn’t have a car. Dorothy Cooper doesn’t have a passport; a vacation abroad was never in her future.

    Tennessee isn’t alone. At this moment, 33 states have proposed or already adopted the same voter id laws that have disqualified Dorothy Cooper from the one fundamental thing that we all do as Americans. It’s estimated that 11% or roughly 20 million people don’t have government issued voter ids and will be disenfranchised this November. Why? To crack down on the terrible problem of voter fraud. Governor Rick Perry of Texas, who is about to enter the presidential primary race, is serious about cracking down on the problem:

    >Video of Perry: “Making sure that there is not fraud, making sure that someone is not manipulating that process makes all the sense in the world to me.”<

    Me too. Because voter fraud is such a huge problem that during a five year period in the Bush Administration, when 196 million votes were cast, the number of cases of voter fraud reached…86. Not 86,000. 86. Here’s what that number looks like as a percentage of votes cast. .00004%. Four one hundred thousandths of a percent. This would be called a solution without a problem, but it’s not. It’s just a solution to a different problem.

    Republican’s have a hard time getting certain people to vote for them. So life would be a lot easier if certain people just weren’t allowed to vote at all. I’m ashamed to say that 32 out of the 33 voter id laws were proposed by Republican legislators, and passed by Republican controlled statehouses. And signed into law by Republican governors. I am not ashamed to say that I, however, am a Republican. And that brings us to tonight’s second story.

    I’m what the leaders of the Tea Party would call a RINO: Republican in Name Only. And that’s ironic because that’s exactly what I think about the leaders of the Tea Party. Because the most conservative Republicans today…aren’t Republicans.

    Republicans believe in a prohibitive military. We believe in a common sense government. And that there are social programs enacted in the last half century that work but that there are way too many costing way too much, that don’t. We believe in the rule of law and order and free market capitalism. The Tea Party believes in loving America but hating Americans. Tea Party Congressman Allen West of Florida.

    >Video of West: I must confess, when I see anyone with an Obama bumper sticker, I recogonize them as a threat to the gene pool. <

    They believe in loving America, but hating its government. Conservative activist, Grover Norquist.

    >Video of Norquist: I don’t want to abolish government, I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub. <

    And they believe that anybody who disagrees with the Tea Party has sinister anti-American motives.

    >Video of Herman Cain: The objective of the liberals is to destroy this country. The objective of the liberals is to make America mediocre. <

    Most of all, you must never, under any circumstance, seek to reach a compromise with your opponent. Or do any of what Democrats and genuine Republicans both call ‘governing.’ Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell:

    >Vidieo of McConnell: Our top political priority over the next two years should be to deny President Obama a second term.<

    And one other plank in the Tea Party platform. If you are poor, it means that you are either too lazy or too stupid to be rich. Here’s Andre Bauer, Tea Party Leader and the Lt. Governor of South Carolina [McAvoy read’s Bauer’s words] : My grandmother was not a highly educated woman but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed.”

    It’s almost hard to believe that Republicans can’t get Dorothy Cooper to vote for them.

    During Tea Party rallys and in campaign speeches, we’ve been told that America has been founded as a Christian nation and if the founding fathers were here today, they’d tell us so. Here’s John Adams in the treaty of Tripoli: “As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” And here’s Thomas Jefferson: “…that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions.” And here’s the first amendment to the US Constitution: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

    What’s more frightening than the perversion of our great history is that sensible strong smart Republicans, the very men and women who should be standing up to radical fundamentalism, are so frightened in losing primary battles to religious zealots that they’ve thrown in the towel on sanity. So we get this:

    >Video of John McCain: Yes, that the constitution established the United States as a Christian nation.<

    It’s ironic because the biggest enemy of the phony Republican isn’t Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid or Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama. It’s this man. [image of Jesus Christ]. He said ‘Heal the sick. Feed the hungry. Care for the weakest among us. And always pray in private. ‘

    On screen behind McAvoy while he reads:
    - Ideological purity
    - Compromise as weakness
    - A fundamentalist belief in scriptural literalism
    - Denying science
    - Unmoved by facts
    - Undeterred by new information
    - A hostile fear of progress
    - A demonization of education
    - A need to control women’s bodies
    - Severe xenophobia
    - Tribal mentality
    - Intolerance of dissent
    - A pathological hatred of the US government

    They can call themselves the Tea Party. They can call themselves Conservatives. And they can even call themselves Republicans. Though Republican’s certainly shouldn’t. But we should call them what they are: The American Taliban. And the American Taliban cannot survive if Dorothy Cooper is allowed to vote.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/27/1124698/--The-Newsroom-airs-the-news-program-we-ve-been-waiting-for
  4. Joined
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    18 Oct '15 14:06
    Originally posted by finnegan
    There are thousands of small, independent Christian churches around the US, many of them following a very strict fundamentalist theology, said David Bromley, a religion professor at Virginia Commonwealth University. Their beliefs can lead to strong resistance when a member wishes to leave, he said.
    For some very small value of "Christian"... none of these idiots would be accepted in any church I've ever been to, not even the Roman Catholic one. Hell, not even the Jehovah's!
  5. Joined
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    18 Oct '15 14:11
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [i]A mother and father whipped their 19-year-old son to death with an electrical cord during an all-night spiritual counseling session triggered by his desire to leave their church, a a New York court has heard.

    Lucas Leonard was subjected to a 12-hour ordeal by his parents, sister and fellow church members at the Word of Life Christian church in New Har ...[text shortened]... http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/17/new-york-church-beating-teen-whipped-word-of-life
    Interestingly, Jesus claimed to be "The Way", yet he never insisted people follow him.

    Jesus is our example. I don't insist that you follow Jesus, nor do I suggest forcing you or anyone else to do so.

    God made us free moral agents. We all will answer to him for our own actions. It is only man who wishes to negate these freedoms and force us to do and think as we are told.
  6. Joined
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    18 Oct '15 14:14
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    For some very small value of "Christian"... none of these idiots would be accepted in any church I've ever been to, not even the Roman Catholic one. Hell, not even the Jehovah's!
    Cults like this arise in all sorts of religions and human organizations.

    It happens when people sell out to an organization or cult of personality, instead of following their God (or inner conscience that God gives them)
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    18 Oct '15 14:44
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/14/church-s-faith-healing-killed-this-baby.html

    "Church's 'Faith Healing' Killed This Baby"
    --Samantha Allen (14 October 2015)

    A white American Christian couple's conviction for manslaughter has been upheld.
    The devout parents had refused to take their premature newborn child to a hospital.
    If they ha ...[text shortened]... name of
    Christian religious freedom--of what these parents did in allowing their child to die.
    I disapprove of what the parents did.

    I also disapprove of the State sending them to prison.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    18 Oct '15 14:49
    Originally posted by whodey
    Cults like this arise in all sorts of religions and human organizations.

    It happens when people sell out to an organization or cult of personality, instead of following their God (or inner conscience that God gives them)
    Why isn't your religion, Paulism, not a personality cult? With the leader being Jesus?
  9. Zugzwang
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    18 Oct '15 19:472 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I disapprove of what the parents did.
    I also disapprove of the State sending them to prison.
    Does No1Marauder object to the parents being sentenced to prison on account of the
    particular circumstances of this case (the parents claim that they were unaware that their
    child's life was in danger) or a general principle (the parents' right to act in accordance
    with their religious beliefs gives them absolute authority over disposing of their child's life)?

    Does No1Marauder believe that it *should* be illegal for a parent to refuse to give one's
    child professional medical care when they are aware that child's life is in danger?
    And if No1Marauder believes there should be a law against doing what the parents did in
    this case, then how should that law be enforced if there's no risk of criminal punishment?

    I don't believe that parents always know best or act in the best interests of their children.
    And I believe that sometimes state intervention is justified and necessary to protect children.
    Should American laws allow a parent to have FGM (female genital mutilation) to be performed
    upon a girl--against her will--if the parent insists it's necessary for cultural or religious reasons?
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    18 Oct '15 22:57
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Does No1Marauder object to the parents being sentenced to prison on account of the
    particular circumstances of this case (the parents claim that they were unaware that their
    child's life was in danger) or a general principle (the parents' right to act in accordance
    with their religious beliefs gives them absolute authority over disposing of their child' ...[text shortened]... girl--against her will--if the parent insists it's necessary for cultural or religious reasons?
    I think they have suffered enough; I don't have the bloodlust to punish that you do.
  11. Zugzwang
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    18 Oct '15 23:203 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I think they have suffered enough; I don't have the bloodlust to punish that you do.
    No1Marauder, who's (arguably) the most outspoken advocate of political violence here
    (at least of IRA violence), professes to be horrified by the 'bloodlust' of the judge, jurors,
    and other people attempting to uphold Oregon's law against allowing religious parents
    to deny professional medical treatment to their dying children!

    For the record, I note that No1Marauder has evaded most of my questions.
    And I note that these parents who supposedly 'have suffered enough' still insist that
    they did nothing wrong and *have no regrets* (it's in God's hands) about the outcome.

    "Both of them (parents) testified that, looking back on David's death, they would not
    have done anything differently."
    --Oregon State Supreme Court Judge Virginia Linder

    So will No1Marauder send Judge Linder a note denouncing her for 'bloodlust'?
    Would No1Marauder like to condemn all the jurors (assuming there was a jury trial) who
    agreed to convict the parents of manslaughter in 2011?

    Does No1Marauder have *any concern* that *not* applying the law toward these parents
    will fail to deter other fanatical 'faith-healing' parents from the doing the same to their children?
    Does No1Marauder believe it's not too bad when a child dies on account of abuse or neglect
    by one's parents as long as the state's prevented from 'interfering' on behalf of the child?

    This was far from the first and presumably will not be the last case when children die
    because their religious parents refuse to give them professional medical treatment.
    But some people like to put 'religious freedom' (or their hatred of state intervention)
    above the lives of these children (who are too young to represent themselves in court).
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    19 Oct '15 00:00
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    No1Marauder, who's (arguably) the most outspoken advocate of political violence here
    (at least of IRA violence), professes to be horrified by the 'bloodlust' of the judge, jurors,
    and other people attempting to uphold Oregon's law against allowing religious parents
    to deny professional medical treatment to their dying children!

    For the record, I note ...[text shortened]... ention)
    above the lives of these children (who are too young to represent themselves in court).
    I'm not in the mood for your self-righteous, insulting bile tonight, so GFY.

    The couple lost their child hours after it was born. If you had the tiniest piece of decency you'd show some compassion for such a terrible loss. But because you want to use this tragedy to further a fanatical agenda, you just don't care. You are a pathetic, monstrous a**hole..
  13. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    19 Oct '15 00:47
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    For some very small value of "Christian"... none of these idiots would be accepted in any church I've ever been to, not even the Roman Catholic one. Hell, not even the Jehovah's!
    Just to be sure, you do know, do you not, that Will McAvoy is a fictitious character and that this monologue was written by Aaron Sorkin for a drama television show called The Newsroom?
  14. Zugzwang
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    19 Oct '15 02:181 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I'm not in the mood for your self-righteous, insulting bile tonight, so GFY.

    The couple lost their child hours after it was born. If you had the tiniest piece of decency you'd show some compassion for such a terrible loss. But because you want to use this tragedy to further a fanatical agenda, you just don't care. You are a pathetic, monstrous a**hole..
    More offensive disingenuous nonsense from the extremely dishonest and hypocritical No1Marauder.
    Would No1Marauder like to point out exactly what I have done in making and enforcing
    Oregon's law against parents being allowed to have their children die of medical neglect?

    No1Marauder is one of the most morally despicable people at RHP.
    And I welcome No1Marauder's obsessive hatred.
  15. Zugzwang
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    19 Oct '15 02:582 edits
    Originally posted by sh76 to Shallow Blue
    Just to be sure, you do know, do you not, that Will McAvoy is a fictitious character and
    that this monologue was written by Aaron Sorkin for a drama television show called The Newsroom?
    Was Shallow Blue replying to Finnegan's original post or to his latter post
    (third in the thread, cited by Sh76) in which 'The Newsroom' content appears?
    It seems to me that Shallow Blue was replying to Finnegan's original post.
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