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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber huckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
    14 Jul '14 13:54
    Hi guys.

    I'm going to post an article from the Irish times, and copy paste the text here.

    Basically i find the use of the equality legislation to be flawed in this particular case, i wondered what you guys think...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/antrim-bakery-refuses-to-bake-gay-marriage-cake-1.1859216

    .....................................

    A Co Antrim run bakery which refused to bake a cake with a message supporting gay marriage has been warned by the North’s Equality Commission that it could face prosecution.
    The Christian-run company, Ashers Baking Company would not take the order for the cake which was to feature the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie with their arms around one another.
    The slogan on the cake was to state “Support Gay Marriage” and feature the logo of Queerspace”, a gay, bisexual and transgender volunteer organisation based in Belfast.

    The Equality Commission confirmed today that it is supporting a complainant whose cake order was refused by Ashers. The company could face prosecution for allegedly being in breach of the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations Northern Ireland 2006 which deals with the provision of goods, services and facilities.
    “In this case the commission has granted assistance to the complainant, and has written to the company concerned on his behalf. The commission will consider any response before taking further action,” said a spokesman for the Equality Commission.
    Ashers in turn is being supported by the British Christian Institute.
    Ashers’ 24-year-old general manager Daniel McArthur told the institute that they were happy to bake cakes for anyone, but could not fulfil that particular order as it clashed with the ethos of the business. He said that the order was placed in May in its Belfast shop and referred to its head office.
    “We are Christians and our Christianity reaches to every point of our lives, whether that’s at home or in the day-to-day running of the business,” he said
    “We thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs, certainly was in contradiction with what the Bible teaches,” he added.
    “Although we have found this experience certainly unsettling and disruptive to our day-to-day business, we are certainly convinced that we have made the right decision, and we continue to take the stance that we do take”, said Mr McArthur.
    He said the customer was offered a full refund which was collected shortly after the order was refused. “We thought that was the end of it, but approximately six weeks later we received a letter from the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission’s letter said that we had discriminated against the customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation,” he said.
    The company is named after a verse from Genesis in the Bible which says, “Bread from Asher shall be rich and he shall yield royal dainties.”
    Ashers, which was established in Newtownabbey in 1992 has six shops and employs 62 people.
    The Christian Institute’s legal defence fund is supporting Ashers. Its director Colin Hart said all the McArthurs wanted to do was “to run their bakery according to their Christian beliefs”.
    He added, “There won’t be many situations where they need to turn down an order but this is obviously one of them. No one should be forced to use their creative skills to promote a cause which goes against their consciences. Imbalanced equality laws are making it increasingly hard for people, especially Christians.”
    Alliance North Down councillor Andrew Muir, supporting the Equality Commission’s action, said the cake was to be produced for an International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia that he hosted when mayor of North Down. He said another bakery in Bangor stepped in and baked the Bert and Ernie cake.
    Three times in the past two years the Northern Assembly has rejected proposals calling for the legalisation of same sex marriage. “It is ridiculous for this bakery to suggest that they would have to endorse the campaign,” said Mr Muir.
    “For Northern Ireland to prosper and overcome our divisions we need a new society where businesses are willing to cater for all, regardless of religious views, political opinion, disability, race, age, sexual orientation, marital status, gender and other backgrounds,” he added.

    .....................................................


    Although i am pro Gay rights, i find this particular situation to be a bit sour to the taste. A Gay rights activist purposely set up a scenario in order to attack a Christian bakery, and in my opinion i really don't think the equality legislation was meant to be used as a weapon in this way. Not wishing to take part in the promotion of Gay Marriage is not the same as discriminating. It's a matter of conscience and the matter is primarily political/ethical.

    Just wondered what you guys thought about this...Thanks in advance for any replies
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    14 Jul '14 13:56
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    Hi guys.

    I'm going to post an article from the Irish times, and copy paste the text here.

    Basically i find the use of the equality legislation to be flawed in this particular case, i wondered what you guys think...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/antrim-bakery-refuses-to-bake-gay-marriage-cake-1.1859216

    .............. ...[text shortened]... /ethical.

    Just wondered what you guys thought about this...Thanks in advance for any replies
    This was debated last year when a similar situation arose in Oregon.

    I think you are correct. Though I am fully in favor of equal rights for all people and understand that public accommodations may be subject to anti-discrimination laws, there is something disheartening about the government forcing a person to produce an item that the person does not want to produce due to his or her own belief system.
  3. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    14 Jul '14 14:00
    I agree with you.
  4. 14 Jul '14 14:08
    Most people are morons, so they will often take moronic business decisions for moronic reasons. It's not the government's place to judge whether or not a business deal was accepted or rejected for the right reasons. An exception could perhaps be made in the case where a company or cartel has a strong monopoly position, e.g. if Microsoft, Apple and Google would agree not to sell operating systems to Jews.
  5. 14 Jul '14 14:16
    Originally posted by Seitse
    I agree with you.
    I also agree. As an aside. You are never going to be able to get anything "bangon" when it comes to trying to cover all bases for everybody you just try to do your best. Loopholes will be found in any given situation if one looks hard enough and has the time to search them out.
  6. 14 Jul '14 14:42
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    Hi guys.

    I'm going to post an article from the Irish times, and copy paste the text here.

    Basically i find the use of the equality legislation to be flawed in this particular case, i wondered what you guys think...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/antrim-bakery-refuses-to-bake-gay-marriage-cake-1.1859216

    .............. ...[text shortened]... /ethical.

    Just wondered what you guys thought about this...Thanks in advance for any replies
    Its difficult being a straight guy in a gay world, the stigma, the persecution and now the prosecution!
  7. Standard member redbadger
    Suzzie says Badger
    14 Jul '14 14:45
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Its difficult being a straight guy in a gay world, the stigma, the persecution and now the prosecution!
    and visa versa said the badger to the Zen Master
  8. 14 Jul '14 14:51
    Originally posted by redbadger
    and visa versa said the badger to the Zen Master
    Yes, badgers are also persecuted, sadly!
  9. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    14 Jul '14 14:53
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    Hi guys.

    I'm going to post an article from the Irish times, and copy paste the text here.

    Basically i find the use of the equality legislation to be flawed in this particular case, i wondered what you guys think...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/antrim-bakery-refuses-to-bake-gay-marriage-cake-1.1859216

    .............. ...[text shortened]... /ethical.

    Just wondered what you guys thought about this...Thanks in advance for any replies
    Had they refused to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding it would be a different matter, since then they would actually be discriminating against a group of customers on the basis of their sexuality, but I don't see why they shouldn't refuse to bake a propaganda cake. Of course this does mean that for consistencies' sake they should refuse any requests to bake cakes opposing gay marriage.
  10. 14 Jul '14 14:59
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Most people are morons, so they will often take moronic business decisions for moronic reasons. It's not the government's place to judge whether or not a business deal was accepted or rejected for the right reasons. An exception could perhaps be made in the case where a company or cartel has a strong monopoly position, e.g. if Microsoft, Apple and Google would agree not to sell operating systems to Jews.
    This is a rather typical reaction, irrational and illogical, unreasoned and emotional. I am quite sure that the Nuremberg trials established that the rule of conscience is paramount and in fact atrocities occur when that rule of conscience is suppressed or supplanted by an ideology which seeks to negate its influence. Now you may not agree with the stance, but its hardly moronic to exercise the conscience and indeed the opposite me be true for by its very nature a process of discernment usually takes place. To prosecute an individual on the basis that they will not make a cake for you is ludicrous in the extreme, you are after all at liberty to take your business elsewhere and not a single right of yours has been violated.
  11. 14 Jul '14 15:02
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Had they refused to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding it would be a different matter, since then they would actually be discriminating against a group of customers on the basis of their sexuality, but I don't see why they shouldn't refuse to bake a propaganda cake. Of course this does mean that for consistencies' sake they should refuse any requests to bake cakes opposing gay marriage.
    No one should be forced to act against the dictates of their conscience, to do so is tyranny.
  12. 14 Jul '14 15:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    This is a rather typical reaction, irrational and illogical, unreasoned and emotional. I am quite sure that the Nuremberg trials established that the rule of conscience is paramount and in fact atrocities occur when that rule of conscience is suppressed or supplanted by an ideology which seeks to negate its influence. Now you may not agree with the ...[text shortened]... ll at liberty to take your business elsewhere and not a single right of yours has been violated.
    It seems you have not read the post you have responded to, or failed to understand its contents. Perhaps you could try again, and if there is still something unclear I will attempt to elaborate.
  13. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    14 Jul '14 15:12
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    No one should be forced to act against the dictates of their conscience, to do so is tyranny.
    They are free to refuse to bake any wedding cakes. But if they bake wedding cakes they must not discriminate against gay weddings.
  14. 14 Jul '14 15:32 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    They are free to refuse to bake any wedding cakes. But if they bake wedding cakes they must not discriminate against gay weddings.
    Your words make absolutely NO sense, how can they be free to refuse to make any wedding cake and yet be held accountable for refusing to make a cake for gay weddings? In what sense are they free? Please explain
  15. 14 Jul '14 18:28
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Your words make absolutely NO sense, how can they be free to refuse to make any wedding cake and yet be held accountable for refusing to make a cake for gay weddings? In what sense are they free? Please explain
    In a free country a person has the right to do business with whomever he wishes to do business.

    We see this everyday when people decide which business establishments to enter and do business. I fail to see why the business doesn't have the same right. If they do their business poorly, then they will go out of business.

    But no, citizens are not viewed as citizens, but subjects. As subjects of the state, the business must service all people in the country.