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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    23 Dec '11 06:41 / 3 edits
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16306376

    The Turkish prime minister has announced measures against France after MPs passed a bill criminalising denial of the 1915-16 Armenian "genocide".

    Ankara is recalling its ambassador and freezing political visits as well as joint military projects, including exercises, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

    The bill was passed by the French National Assembly on Thursday and is due to go before the Senate next year.

    French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe has publicly opposed it.

    Under the bill, those publicly denying genocide would face a year in jail and a fine of 45,000 euros (£29,000; $58,000).

    Armenians say up to 1.5 million people were killed by the Ottoman Turks in 1915-16.


    How interesting is this then!
    - Is France right to pass this bill?
    - Is Turkey's reaction exaggerated (bill hasn't even been through the senate yet)?
    - Where's this little diplomatic stunt gonna lead us?

    - Should it be possible to punish people for denying a holocaust / genocide?
    For example, say the Native Americans, the Japanese or the Vietnamese, claimed that the US "holocausted" them and a country passed a bill making it illegal to deny these genocides?
    - Where does this sort of thing end?

    Personally (and this is before I read your comments; which may change my mind on this matter, for I've not thought it through really), my initial reaction is that it's madness. How can someone be denied freedom of thought or interpretation?
    Surely it's up to me what I deny or don't deny???
  2. 23 Dec '11 08:26
    It has to do with the fact that France don't want Turkey to enter the European Union. Nothing more.

    It has nothing to do with the genocides France is responsible to in Africa during the colonization. Exactly nothing.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    23 Dec '11 13:25 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16306376

    The Turkish prime minister has announced measures against France after MPs passed a bill criminalising denial of the 1915-16 Armenian "genocide".

    Ankara is recalling its ambassador and freezing political visits as well as joint military projects, including exercises, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

    The edom of thought or interpretation?
    Surely it's up to me what I deny or don't deny???
    I don't think that making a political or historical statement, even a false one, should be grounds for punishment. I can understand why Germany does it regarding the Holocaust, but I don't think it's compatible with freedom of speech.

    However, it's also true that it's really none of Turkey's business what rules France imposes on is own citizens and Turkey's continued battle to deny what is plainly a historical fact (whether it was 1.5 million people or somewhat less is not really the point) belies its credibility on pretty much anything. Turkey also has an enormous chip on its shoulder since it was denied admission to the EU (smartly, on the part of the Europeans; while Turkey's economy is certainly improving and is not in as bad shape as Greece's or Italy's, etc., the EU doesn't need that kind of exposure, especially in its present state) and chafes under central European resentment of its immigrants to places like Germany. That's probably what this is about more than anything.
  4. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    23 Dec '11 13:27
    Originally posted by sh76
    I don't think that making a political or historical statement, even a false one, should be grounds for punishment. I can understand why Germany does it regarding the Holocaust, but I don't think it's compatible with freedom of speech.

    However, it's also true that it's really none of Turkey's business what rules France imposes on is own citizens and Turkey's ...[text shortened]... rants to places like Germany. That's probably what this is about more than anything.
    What do you think Turkey should do to address its 'genocide issue'?
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    23 Dec '11 13:42
    Originally posted by FMF
    What do you think Turkey should do to address its 'genocide issue'?
    Well, I'd like them to just admit it occurred. That would be a really good start.
  6. 23 Dec '11 15:28
    Outlawing denying crimes is rather silly, and possibly even gives credence to those believing there is some kind of conspiracy by the establishment to hide the "real" truth.
  7. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    23 Dec '11 15:53
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Outlawing denying crimes is rather silly, and possibly even gives credence to those believing there is some kind of conspiracy by the establishment to hide the "real" truth.
    'The "There's nothing wrong with the left engine" Monty Python plane joke'.

    By denying the existence of something that doesn't exist, people often reckon that it then must exist. Interesting.

    Does this mean that atheism leads to more religion? Perhaps another thread for another day...
  8. 23 Dec '11 16:55
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16306376

    [i]The Turkish prime minister has announced measures against France after MPs passed a bill criminalising denial of the 1915-16 Armenian "genocide".

    Ankara is recalling its ambassador and freezing political visits as well as joint military projects, including exercises, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

    The ...[text shortened]... edom of thought or interpretation?
    Surely it's up to me what I deny or don't deny???
    Oh, I thought this was a thread about Iran denying another genocide ever occured, my bad.

    Carry on!!
  9. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    23 Dec '11 22:41
    Originally posted by sh76
    However, it's also true that it's really none of Turkey's business what rules France imposes on is own citizens...
    Presumably, the law would apply to anyone standing on French soil, not only French citizens.

    And since the largest group of people likely to deny that particular genocide would be Turks or of Turkish descent, it is hard to see this bill as anything other than racist.

    Such laws should never be passed.
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    23 Dec '11 22:55
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Presumably, the law would apply to anyone standing on French soil, not only French citizens.

    And since the largest group of people likely to deny that particular genocide would be Turks or of Turkish descent, it is hard to see this bill as anything other than racist.

    Such laws should never be passed.
    Good points.
  11. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    24 Dec '11 07:10
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Presumably, the law would apply to anyone standing on French soil, not only French citizens.

    And since the largest group of people likely to deny that particular genocide would be Turks or of Turkish descent, it is hard to see this bill as anything other than racist.

    Such laws should never be passed.
    Why should denying one genocide be illegal and denying another not?
  12. 24 Dec '11 14:19
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16306376

    [i]The Turkish prime minister has announced measures against France after MPs passed a bill criminalising denial of the 1915-16 Armenian "genocide".

    Ankara is recalling its ambassador and freezing political visits as well as joint military projects, including exercises, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.

    The ...[text shortened]... edom of thought or interpretation?
    Surely it's up to me what I deny or don't deny???
    I think its a gratuitous and badly conceived assault on free speech to criminalize "genocide denial".

    Like you have said yourself, its a diplomatic stunt, its an artificial controversy.
  13. 29 Dec '11 13:22
    Noone wonderig about why France, and not Germany, make a law aout of it?
    This has nothing to do with genocide, not at all. Believe me on that. This law has an address-tag attached to it.