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  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 May '12 12:58
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/30/opinion/nejame-zimmerman-racial-profiling/index.html

    Even if a racial aspect was among the factors that led Zimmerman to be suspicious of Martin and follow him, the law regarding what a civilian may do when following another person was not necessarily broken.

    Is it racial profiling for a black man to avoid going into a biker bar at night in a small rural town? Is it racial profiling for a white person to refuse to take a stroll through housing projects in a large urban city at midnight?. The biker bar and the projects both undoubtedly are filled with people who are racially colorblind, but most would assume that some might not be. Is it racial profiling or life's cumulative experiences and knowledge or simply common sense that would cause one to formulate an opinion?

    A civilian standard of profiling is much different legally than that applied to a law enforcement officer. A civilian, as offensive as it may be, is allowed to personally act on biases or prejudices, whereas a law enforcement officer is prohibited from doing so.

    From the first press reports, I believed the shooting was racially motivated. If so, life in prison would be wholly appropriate as a punishment upon conviction. However, research, investigation and learning the facts caused me to reverse this earlier opinion.

    The apparent absence of reported previous acts of bigotry, the statements from family and friends indicating Zimmerman wasn't prejudiced, being raised in a multiracial family and having many ethnically diverse friends (which standing alone would be irrelevant but relevant to me when taken in totality with these other indicators), his mentoring of two black youth over a couple of years at his own expense and doing so without fanfare or attention and a review of prior calls and the 911 call indicating race wasn't the basis of the call are some of the reasons for reassessing my original opinion.

    Moreover, documents released in the case indicate Zimmerman had previously expressed concern and was critical of the Sanford, Florida, police for the way they treated a case involving the beating of a homeless black man when they didn't arrest the white defendant immediately. (A lawyer in my firm represented the defendant in that case, who was the son of a Sanford police officer.)
    There is a question about whether George Zimmerman primarily called the police to report suspicious activity of young black men. If true, this is quite troubling. But before its relevance could be fully determined, an analysis would need to be made of each call to determine the ratio of calls made relative to blacks, whites and Hispanics, whether other strangers who weren't black were ever seen in the complex and not called on and whether unknown black men were ever seen in the complex and the police not called. It would also be relevant to determine whether the race of the suspects in the rash of burglaries that had previously occurred in the complex were ever identified. Too much speculation has surrounded this tragedy and I think it important to fully evaluate such matters before conclusions are reached.

    Barring new facts or possibly a more detailed analysis of Zimmerman's previous calls, there doesn't appear to be any evidence or support for the supposition that bigotry or prejudice played a role in Zimmerman's shooting of Martin.

    emphasis mine

    Of all the countless media sources and civil rights groups digging into this case, there's little or no evidence that Zimmerman was a racist. On the contrary, the great weight of the evidence was that he was not.

    The picture that emerges here is that Zimmerman was, if anything, a slightly paranoid wanna-be police officer who was emboldened by his legal gun to take it upon himself to serve as the neighborhood police officer.

    Though it was understandable to bring up these questions initially, the entire racial angle to this story really ought to melt away at this point.

    Let's see if it does.
  2. 30 May '12 13:28
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/30/opinion/nejame-zimmerman-racial-profiling/index.html

    [quote]Even if a racial aspect was among the factors that led Zimmerman to be suspicious of Martin and follow him, the law regarding what a civilian may do when following another person was not necessarily broken.

    Is it racial profiling for a black man to avoid going into a ...[text shortened]... angle to this story really ought to melt away at this point.

    Let's see if it does.
    If the racial element goes away, then I imagine the whole story goes away. The main reason we are talking about this case is there is a belief that a white guy targeted and then killed a black kid and nothing was done. Whether it was self defense or a fight or something like that it really has no national interest or am I missing something?
  3. 30 May '12 14:05
    Originally posted by quackquack
    If the racial element goes away, then I imagine the whole story goes away. The main reason we are talking about this case is there is a belief that a white guy targeted and then killed a black kid and nothing was done. Whether it was self defense or a fight or something like that it really has no national interest or am I missing something?
    In terms of the case, the colour issue is irrelevant, the fact that an armed man shot an unarmed kid on a public road, after following him for sometime, the fact is zimmerman does not deny following martin an innocent pedestrian and that this action led to some sort of confrontation between the two and no surprises it is only the armed man who gets to tell his side of the story, and woe betide any race hate monger who dares to suggest that zimmerman might bear some responsibility for the tragedy.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 May '12 14:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by quackquack
    If the racial element goes away, then I imagine the whole story goes away. The main reason we are talking about this case is there is a belief that a white guy targeted and then killed a black kid and nothing was done. Whether it was self defense or a fight or something like that it really has no national interest or am I missing something?
    There's also the fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested right away. I don't think that's a huge deal, but there are others who do (and though I don't agree with that point of view, it is reasonable).
  5. 30 May '12 14:22
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/30/opinion/nejame-zimmerman-racial-profiling/index.html

    [quote]Even if a racial aspect was among the factors that led Zimmerman to be suspicious of Martin and follow him, the law regarding what a civilian may do when following another person was not necessarily broken.

    Is it racial profiling for a black man to avoid going into a ...[text shortened]... angle to this story really ought to melt away at this point.

    Let's see if it does.
    Zimmerman didn't have to have a white hood in his closet to have a racial bias. I'm not saying that it's somehow conclusive that he did have one, I'm just saying that I don't see anything in this article that concludes that there wasn't any at all.

    I think the key is:
    "Even if a racial aspect was among the factors that led Zimmerman to be suspicious of Martin and follow him, the law regarding what a civilian may do when following another person was not necessarily broken."

    and I tend to agree with that.

    His examples of a black person avoiding a biker bar or a white person avoiding ghettos are not really the best analogies either... but I think that is a different discussion.
  6. 30 May '12 14:28
    Originally posted by sh76
    There's also the fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested right away. I don't think that's a huge deal, but there are others who do (and though I don't agree with that point of view, it is reasonable).
    Yeah that is where a lot of heat is generated in this case, but I think that is part of a wider question for the U.S as it is for many societies, and should not blur anybody's vision in regard to this case.

    Justice for Martin is every bit as at risk from the two separate issues getting intertwined as justice for Zimmerman.

    BTW the whole concept of pretend policemen being legally sanctioned to run around pointing guns at their neighbors is whole other, and arguably bigger, issue.
  7. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    30 May '12 14:28
    Originally posted by sh76
    ... the entire racial angle to this story really ought to melt away at this point.

    Let's see if it does.
    Sharpton, Jackson etc will never allow any racial angle to melt away. It's their ticket to power.
  8. 30 May '12 14:51
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    In terms of the case, the colour issue is irrelevant, the fact that an armed man shot an unarmed kid on a public road, after following him for sometime, the fact is zimmerman does not deny following martin an innocent pedestrian and that this action led to some sort of confrontation between the two and no surprises it is only the armed man who gets to tell ...[text shortened]... hate monger who dares to suggest that zimmerman might bear some responsibility for the tragedy.
    If the unarmed guy was beating on Zimmerman's face to the point where Zimmerman is bleeding out of his head, then it does not seem like there is an innocent kid in this story.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    30 May '12 15:58
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/30/opinion/nejame-zimmerman-racial-profiling/index.html

    [quote]Even if a racial aspect was among the factors that led Zimmerman to be suspicious of Martin and follow him, the law regarding what a civilian may do when following another person was not necessarily broken.

    Is it racial profiling for a black man to avoid going into a ...[text shortened]... angle to this story really ought to melt away at this point.

    Let's see if it does.
    Before we do so, perhaps we should investigate the claims made by Witness #9: http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/26/but-george-black-people/

    And by Witness #22: http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/05/18/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case-witness-interviews-statements-full-audio/


    Looks like it's sh76 Rush To Judgment time again.
  10. 30 May '12 16:20
    Originally posted by quackquack
    If the unarmed guy was beating on Zimmerman's face to the point where Zimmerman is bleeding out of his head, then it does not seem like there is an innocent kid in this story.
    Lol so is that the latest bs, martin thumped Zimmerman so hard in the FACE that the blood spurted out of his HEAD is that what Zimmerman is claiming?

    Or is it as I feared, that the right wing gun lobby have so much invested in Zimmerman being innocent that they claim all kinds of nonsense on his behalf?

    A bleed from the head is more often gained from the head coming into contact with a hard and/or abrasive surface, possibly the kerb or road during a wrestle with somebody trying to take a weapon from an armed psycho who has accosted them for no reason. I am not saying that is what happened, I am just saying it is at least as likely a scenario as the one you give.
  11. 30 May '12 18:01
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    Lol so is that the latest bs, martin thumped Zimmerman so hard in the FACE that the blood spurted out of his HEAD is that what Zimmerman is claiming?

    Or is it as I feared, that the right wing gun lobby have so much invested in Zimmerman being innocent that they claim all kinds of nonsense on his behalf?

    A bleed from the head is more often gained from ...[text shortened]... that is what happened, I am just saying it is at least as likely a scenario as the one you give.
    I believe in gun control. But this case is not about whether Zimmerman was a racist, whether the police were competent or what the gun lobby wishes to happen. If Zimmerman simply targeted and then attacked a guy (whether or not he was a racists), he will not fair well; if he was attacked and reasonably feared for his life (which seems reasonable to me if he was in fact bleeding from his head) he should be far more sucessful in court.
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    30 May '12 18:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Zimmerman didn't have to have a white hood
    What if Martin had a white hoodie?

    Or blue or red?
  13. 31 May '12 07:08
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I believe in gun control. But this case is not about whether Zimmerman was a racist, whether the police were competent or what the gun lobby wishes to happen. If Zimmerman simply targeted and then attacked a guy (whether or not he was a racists), he will not fair well; if he was attacked and reasonably feared for his life (which seems reasonable to me if he was in fact bleeding from his head) he should be far more sucessful in court.
    Its no big deal to me either way I live in the UK where you cannot pull a gun on someone and then shoot them if you do not like the way the ensuing melee turns out. Or decide it is time one of them people got shot and then scuff yourself up and call it self defence.

    But whatever happened Zimmerman bears a responsibility for the outcome and I hope for the sake of justice and the future safety of U.S citizens that He does t get to carry on with his life as if nothing happened.
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    31 May '12 12:34
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    Its no big deal to me either way I live in the UK where you cannot pull a gun on someone and then shoot them if you do not like the way the ensuing melee turns out. Or decide it is time one of them people got shot and then scuff yourself up and call it self defence.

    But whatever happened Zimmerman bears a responsibility for the outcome and I hope for the ...[text shortened]... ture safety of U.S citizens that He does t get to carry on with his life as if nothing happened.
    Even as you make your argument, you feel the need to base it on a contrived scenario about Zimmerman faking his own injuries.

    That says something.
  15. 31 May '12 13:14
    But whatever happened Zimmerman bears a responsibility for the outcome and I hope for the sake of justice and the future safety of U.S citizens that He does t get to carry on with his life as if nothing happened.[/b]
    Doesn't it matter what really happened? I feel advocates from both sides are more interested in preventing what could have happened then actually getting the facts of the case and resolving the real issues. I am not sure how you can know that someone needs to be punished if you do not know whether they are responsible for an incident.