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  1. Standard membershavixmir
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    30 Jan '16 19:52
    I kid you not.
    Just read it on the BBC.
  2. Joined
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    30 Jan '16 21:21
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I kid you not.
    Just read it on the BBC.
    All the more shocking because he's a German .
  3. Standard memberDeepThought
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    30 Jan '16 22:06
    Originally posted by phil3000
    All the more shocking because he's a German .
    She is a German. The story is here [1]. The rough equivalent in Britain would be a member of UKIP saying something like this. It's not like it's a CDU member saying it.

    [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35452306
  4. SubscriberWajoma
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    30 Jan '16 22:28
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    She is a German. The story is here [1]. The rough equivalent in Britain would be a member of UKIP saying something like this. It's not like it's a CDU member saying it.

    [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35452306
    The UKIP has a record of calling for migrants to be shot?
  5. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    31 Jan '16 11:41
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    The UKIP has a record of calling for migrants to be shot?
    no
  6. Standard memberDeepThought
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    31 Jan '16 15:14
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    The UKIP has a record of calling for migrants to be shot?
    No - I was trying to indicate where her party (Alternative für Deutschland) is politically, and how much support it has. Based on what Wikipedia is saying they are pretty similar to UKIP (Euroskeptic, economic liberalism, petty nationalism). Also the headline is a bit sensationalist, it makes it sound as if she was calling for firing squads, but if you read the article it appears that she said the police should defend the border including the use of firearms in accordance with existing law. I don't think it's the world's most helpful comment, but I also don't think exaggerating what she said helps much as all it does is polarize attitudes further.
  7. Standard membershavixmir
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    31 Jan '16 15:17
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    No - I was trying to indicate where her party (Alternative für Deutschland) is politically, and how much support it has. Based on what Wikipedia is saying they are pretty similar to UKIP (Euroskeptic, economic liberalism, petty nationalism). Also the headline is a bit sensationalist, it makes it sound as if she was calling for firing squads, but if you ...[text shortened]... don't think exaggerating what she said helps much as all it does is polarize attitudes further.
    Call me old fashioned, but I just don't think German politicians should be calling for migrants to be shot... At least not for the coming 100 years or so.
  8. Germany
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    31 Jan '16 15:28
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Call me old fashioned, but I just don't think German politicians should be calling for migrants to be shot... At least not for the coming 100 years or so.
    It's sad to see that because the generation that was alive during WW2 has mostly died, along with them have the lessons that ought to have been learned from it.
  9. Standard memberDeepThought
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    31 Jan '16 16:422 edits
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Call me old fashioned, but I just don't think German politicians should be calling for migrants to be shot... At least not for the coming 100 years or so.
    You might want to read the German newspaper article. She didn't call for anyone to be shot, she called for Police to prevent border violations using armed force as a last resort.

    Here is the relevant part of the interview (my translation is italics):
    Interviewer: "Noch mal: Wie soll ein Grenzpolizist in diesem Fall reagieren?"

    "Once again how should a border policeman react in this circumstance?"

    Petry: Er muss den illegalen Grenzübertritt verhindern, notfalls auch von der Schusswaffe Gebrauch machen. So steht es im Gesetz.

    He must prevent the illegal border violation, making use of firearms if necessary. That is what the law is.

    Es gibt in Deutschland ein Gesetz, das einen Schießbefehl an den Grenzen enthält?

    There is a law in Germany that permits an order to open fire at the border?"

    Petry: Ich habe das Wort Schießbefehl nicht benutzt. Kein Polizist will auf einen Flüchtling schießen. Ich will das auch nicht. Aber zur Ultima Ratio gehört der Einsatz von Waffengewalt. Entscheidend ist, dass wir es so weit nicht kommen lassen und über Abkommen mit Österreich und Kontrollen an EU-Außengrenzen den Flüchtlingszustrom bremsen.

    I did not use the word "Schießbefehl" [order to shoot]. No police officer wishes to fire on a refugee. I also do not want that. But the last resort is the use of armed force. (*) It is crucial that we don't let it get to that point and stem the influx of refugees through [improved] EU border checks, in cooperation with Austria.
    I'm pretty confident that the German Police Force's rules on the use of armed force involve the target being armed, she is relying on existing law for her call for a more robust approach at the borders. The claim is that she said "refugees should be shot.", but she didn't, and specifically said "I don't want that.", so there is a false inference. Since I'm not aware of any armed refugees the right questions to ask her are "Why did you bring up the use of armed force? What relevance does it have in this situation?" and specifically "What would make the use of armed force necessary?". The stupid hacks are all too excited about her "orders to shoot people" to think of the relevant question.

    [1] http://www.morgenweb.de/nachrichten/politik/sie-konnen-es-nicht-lassen-1.2620328

    (*) Thanks to Kazet for providing a better translation of this sentence. Google wants me to agree to be spyed on to use their services which I'm not going to do so without that I had have been relying on my very rusty German.
  10. Germany
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    31 Jan '16 16:57
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    You might want to read the German newspaper article. She didn't call for anyone to be shot, she called for Police to prevent border violations using armed force as a last resort.

    Here is the relevant part of the interview (my translation is italics):[quote]Interviewer: "Noch mal: Wie soll ein Grenzpolizist in diesem Fall reagieren?"

    [i]"Once again ...[text shortened]... yed on to use their services which I'm not going to do so I had to rely on my very rusty German.
    Perhaps a better translation is:

    "It is crucial that we don't let it get to that point and stem the influx of refugees through [improved] EU border checks, in cooperation with Austria."
  11. The Catbird's Seat
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    31 Jan '16 17:16
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    No - I was trying to indicate where her party (Alternative für Deutschland) is politically, and how much support it has. Based on what Wikipedia is saying they are pretty similar to UKIP (Euroskeptic, economic liberalism, petty nationalism). Also the headline is a bit sensationalist, it makes it sound as if she was calling for firing squads, but if you ...[text shortened]... don't think exaggerating what she said helps much as all it does is polarize attitudes further.
    When you think about it, besides firearms, what other method to police have for enforcing the law? If folks defy the law, on immigration, or anything else, police can ask them politely to alter their behavior, but if they refuse, they are left with force as the only option
  12. Cape Town
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    31 Jan '16 17:18
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Call me old fashioned, but I just don't think German politicians should be calling for migrants to be shot... At least not for the coming 100 years or so.
    Yes, we don't want them becoming like the americans.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_border#Incidents_of_Border_Patrol_use_of_force
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
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    31 Jan '16 17:20
    Originally posted by normbenign
    When you think about it, besides firearms, what other method to police have for enforcing the law? If folks defy the law, on immigration, or anything else, police can ask them politely to alter their behavior, but if they refuse, they are left with force as the only option
    Well, since we are talking about people jumping over fences and running then an appropriate use of force might be a rugby tackle.
  14. Cape Town
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    31 Jan '16 17:21
    Originally posted by normbenign
    When you think about it, besides firearms, what other method to police have for enforcing the law? If folks defy the law, on immigration, or anything else, police can ask them politely to alter their behavior, but if they refuse, they are left with force as the only option
    Many societies operate just fine without the use of fire arms. Almost invariably, firearms are only required when your opponent has fire arms. I am sure that effecting an arrest of an unarmed migrant would be possible without the use of firearms.
    The problems in the US are precisely because the police don't know any other way to deal with people. Its do as I say, or I shoot you.
  15. Standard memberDeepThought
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    31 Jan '16 17:231 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Perhaps a better translation is:

    "It is crucial that we don't let it get to that point and stem the influx of refugees through [improved] EU border checks, in cooperation with Austria."
    Thanks, that makes more sense and is definitely a better translation, there is no "perhaps" about it - I wasn't getting what Entscheidend and Abkommen meant. I've edited my above post to include your translation.
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