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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 02:24
    Time never stands still and social conventions are constantly under review, but there was a time when "going the grope" was an expected part of the dating ritual. In Australia, the wordsmiths that fashion culture, arrived at this vivid description of human interaction that became an integral part of the lexicon as well as a fairly accurate if earthy depiction of the clumsy interactions two people with often limited sexual knowledge and experience as they first get to "know" the "other".

    Blokes would say it to other blokes, "well did you go the grope?" Sheila's would say it to each other, "well what was he like, did you go the grope?"

    There were rules of course. If you got too close too quickly and your charms were wanting you got told very quickly, rack off hairy legs or something similar.

    If I had a dollar for every breast I tried to fondle and was told to get lost, I would be poorer than if I were given a dollar for every breast I was encouraged to keep on fondling. The point is in the groping department there is no real science to it. There are signals, you interpret them as well as you can, you venture into unknown territory and you punt, you take a chance, and at least back then in the late 70's and 80's everything umbrella'd under nothing ventured nothing gained and if you read everything wrong it was a bit embarrassing but you just dusted yourself off and started again.

    But today it seems quite a minefield. I am really glad I'm no longer on the shelf....
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    18 Nov '17 02:39 / 2 edits
    If you're alluding to the many sex assault cases in the news, I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Dating situations are far different from what men like Weinstein, O'Reilly, Trump and Franken have been accused of. Their crimes are out-of-nowhere sexual assault.

    There's a difference between trying to kiss someone you're on a date with and trying to kiss someone who works for you. In the former, romantic situations are expected; in the other, they're completely inappropriate.

    So if you try to get intimate on a date and are rejected, that's not sexual assault or harassment (so long as you stop when you're rejected). If you try getting intimate with a coworker, that could very well count as sexual harassment or even assault, depending how physical you were. the four men I mentioned all committed sexual assault during a situation that was supposed to be professional.
  3. 18 Nov '17 03:33 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Time never stands still and social conventions are constantly under review, but there was a time when "going the grope" was an expected part of the dating ritual. In Australia, the wordsmiths that fashion culture, arrived at this vivid description of human interaction that became an integral part of the lexicon as well as a fairly accurate if earthy depictio ...[text shortened]... again.

    But today it seems quite a minefield. I am really glad I'm no longer on the shelf....
    I appreciate Kmax87's apparent honesty on this subject.

    When a man has kissed and groped and perhaps done more (as I suspect
    that many men here have done) to women without their consent, he has
    a vested interest in arguing that there's nothing wrong or at least nothing
    illegal about that kind of behaviour. And rape culture lives on.
  4. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 03:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    If you're alluding to the many sex assault cases in the news, I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Dating situations are far different from what men like Weinstein, O'Reilly, Trump and Franken have been accused of. Their crimes are out-of-nowhere sexual assault.

    There's a difference between trying to kiss someone you're on a date with and tryin ...[text shortened]... mentioned all committed sexual assault during a situation that was supposed to be professional.
    I agree that people in a professional relationship are held to a different standard and given the context where high profile males are being brought to book for exploiting the power imbalance with subordinate colleagues, I believe there must also be circumstances where professional and personal life intertwine and professional colleagues kick back after a hard day's grind and get cosy around a Jack Daniels or three and suddenly the lines blur.

    Workplace romances and relationships are very common and most start at some point where one person thinks they have the signal to go the grope. Or are professionals just animals?
  5. Standard member vivify
    rain
    18 Nov '17 03:41
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    I agree that people in a professional relationship are held to a different standard and given the context where high profile males are being brought to book for exploiting the power imbalance with subordinate colleagues, I believe there must also be circumstances where professional and personal life intertwine and professional colleagues kick back after a h ...[text shortened]... where one person thinks they have the signal to go the grope. Or are professionals just animals?
    First of all, "go the grope" is a terrible expression. "Grope" implies touch against someone's will. I suggest you stop using it.

    Secondly, I wasn't denying the existence of office romances. My point was that dating is a different scenario from most other situations. Certain types of advances that are acceptable on a date would not be acceptable most other places.
  6. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 04:12
    Originally posted by @vivify
    First of all, "go the grope" is a terrible expression. "Grope" implies touch against someone's will. I suggest you stop using it.......
    Welcome to Australia!

    Grope may have negative connotations to be sure, but it's just fumbling around in the general direction....
  7. 18 Nov '17 04:37
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Time never stands still and social conventions are constantly under review, but there was a time when "going the grope" was an expected part of the dating ritual. In Australia, you say bber goggbles at bar closingthe wordsmiths that fashion culture, arrived at this vivid description of human interaction that became an integral part of the lexicon as well as ...[text shortened]... again.

    But today it seems quite a minefield. I am really glad I'm no longer on the shelf....
    I always wait for the wowan to grope me first. Then you know it's on. Usually the ugly ones tho. Can you say beer goggles when the bar closes?
  8. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 Nov '17 06:52
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Welcome to Australia!

    Grope may have negative connotations to be sure, but it's just fumbling around in the general direction....
    Perhaps you need to introduce vivify to the person in the picture on your profile.
  9. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    18 Nov '17 08:27
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I appreciate Kmax87's apparent honesty on this subject.

    When a man has kissed and groped and perhaps done more (as I suspect
    that many men here have done) to women without their consent, he has
    a vested interest in arguing that there's nothing wrong or at least nothing
    illegal about that kind of behaviour. And rape culture lives on.
    It’s only wrong if the girl says: “No, hairy legs, you’re like an octopus; hands all over the place. If I wanted to be fumbled by a Neandethal, I’d rub my arse on a tree bark.”

    And the boy didn’t back off.

    Obviously any version of “No.” is appropriate.

    It’s all very well gunning for asking permission to kiss someone, put an arm around them, or whatever... it’s not reality though.
    And if people don’t force themselves on another and listen to “No” then it’s not rape culture either.

    Every man here has tried to kiss a girl and that the girl’s said no. I’m pretty certain that in most cases the man did not lean in, grabbing her by the head and sticking a tongue in her throat to attempt to wrestle her tonsils. No. By far it’s a tentative kiss to see if you’ve got the signals right.

    Equally, I’m pretty sure most men have experienced a woman trying to kiss them as well (the female initiating the kissing).

    In my twenties, gearing up for that first kiss (on a second and sometimes third date... dear God... haha) would give me sleepless nights.

    I’m notoriously bad at interpretating any signals which have to do with me (and considering the feminist wasps-lair I come out of, I nearly always chose the path of caution).
    So, as unromantic as I am, I usually ended up scuffling my feet, looking at my shoes and murmuring: “would it be alright if....”

    On two seperate occasions I’ve been asked by a date if there was something wrong with them.
    Basically, because I didn’t make “the move”.

    Looking back at that whirlwind (and these are just a few examples... I can seriously give you examples of cringeworthy embarrassment which would have you open up a help-line for me) of signals, intentions, doubt, rejection and surprise... there’s no way in hell you can call it rape-culture and there’s no way in hell you can lay down any line other than: if she or he says no, back off.
  10. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    18 Nov '17 08:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Welcome to Australia!

    Grope may have negative connotations to be sure, but it's just fumbling around in the general direction....
    No matter how crass it sounds, grope still sounds better than using sports euphanisms (like: “Did you get to second base?” Or “Did you score?” ).

    However, it does have a tainted macho-culture ring about it.

    Worrying, but not as worrying as: “Did you tap that ass?”

    Which to me sounds like someone was trying to drain a donkey. What of and why?
  11. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 13:14
    Originally posted by @wajoma for the benefit of @vivify
    Perhaps you need to introduce vivify to the person in the picture on your profile.
    LOL! You're a real mate!

    Ladies and Germs, Jim Jefferies

    Language and subject warning. Enter the mind of a typical Aussie Bloke at your own peril!

    YouTube : Airplane Etiquette
    YouTube : Worst thing to tell Therapist
  12. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 13:20
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    No matter how crass it sounds, grope still sounds better than using sports euphanisms (like: “Did you get to second base?” Or “Did you score?” ).

    However, it does have a tainted macho-culture ring about it.

    Worrying, but not as worrying as: “Did you tap that ass?”

    Which to me sounds like someone was trying to drain a donkey. What of and why?
    Got to love the Dutch, I reckon you guys qualify as honorary Aussie's!
  13. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 13:36
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    Perhaps you need to introduce vivify to the person in the picture on your profile.
    Jim in interview with Larry King published a week and a bit ago before the Australian country voted in favor of allowing same sex couples to marry.

    YouTube : Jim on PoliticKING
  14. Standard member vivify
    rain
    18 Nov '17 14:31
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    LOL! You're a real mate!

    Ladies and Germs, Jim Jefferies

    Language and subject warning. Enter the mind of a typical Aussie Bloke at your own peril!

    [youtube Airplane Etiquette]qFx1Cpxpx1E [/youtube]
    [youtube Worst thing to tell Therapist]8sxL5sKvxqQ[/youtube]
    Is that Jeffries in your profile pic? He's hilarious. I've never seen his stand-up, but his talk show is great. He does the usual late-night political comedy, but his take on it seems fresh, and doesn't seem to be the same recycled Trump material.
  15. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Nov '17 16:40
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Is that Jeffries in your profile pic? He's hilarious. I've never seen his stand-up, but his talk show is great. He does the usual late-night political comedy, but his take on it seems fresh, and doesn't seem to be the same recycled Trump material.
    Yes, but his older stuff is very uncut and his had to tone his act down quite a bit to get a regular weekly corporate gig.

    He probably rose to prominence with his comments on gun control.

    I will let him speak for himself.

    YouTube : Jim Jefferies - Gun Control