Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    06 Apr '19 02:51
    @whodey said
    I'm not sure how controlling the means of production in their society by a centralized state power differ from a system where producers possess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods, but whatever.
    That's very sad.

    A dictatorial "centralized state power" is incompatible with the producers having political power and the Nazis gave zero economic power to producers; in fact, they destroyed the unions and worked in close concert with industrialists and other members of the economic elite.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    06 Apr '19 02:59
    Here's a Wiki summary of Nazi economic policies:

    The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic. But after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations, and more were privatized.[40] However, the privatization was "applied within a framework of increasing control of the state over the whole economy through regulation and political interference."[41] The Nazi government took the stance that enterprises should be in private hands wherever possible.[42] State ownership was to be avoided unless it was absolutely necessary for rearmament or the war effort, and even in those cases “the Reich often insisted on the inclusion in the contract of an option clause according to which the private firm operating the plant was entitled to purchase it.”[43] Companies privatized by the Nazis included the four major commercial banks in Germany, which had all come under public ownership during the prior years: Commerz– und Privatbank , Deutsche Bank und Disconto-Gesellschaft , Golddiskontbank and Dresdner Bank . [44][45] Also privatized were the Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways), at the time the largest single public enterprise in the world, the Vereinigte Stahlwerke A.G. (United Steelworks), the second largest joint-stock company in Germany (the largest was IG Farben) and Vereinigte Oberschlesische Hüttenwerke AG , a company controlling all of the metal production in the Upper Silesian coal and steel industry. The government also sold a number of shipbuilding companies, and enhanced private utilities at the expense of municipally owned utilities companies.[46] Additionally, the Nazis privatized some public services which had been previously provided by the government, especially social and labor-related services, and these were mainly taken over by organizations affiliated with the Nazi Party that could be trusted to apply Nazi racial policies.[47]

    One of the reasons for the Nazi privatization policy was to cement the partnership between the government and business interests.[48] Another reason was financial. As the Nazi government faced budget deficits due to its military spending, privatization was one of the methods it used to raise more funds.[49] Between the fiscal years 1934-35 and 1937-38, privatization represented 1.4 percent of the German government's revenues.[50] There was also an ideological motivation. Nazi ideology held entrepreneurship in high regard, and “private property was considered a precondition to developing the creativity of members of the German race in the best interest of the people. [51] The Nazi leadership believed that “private property itself provided important incentives to achieve greater cost consciousness, efficiency gains, and technical progress.” [52] Adolf Hitler used Social Darwinist arguments to support this stance, cautioning against “bureaucratic managing of the economy” that would preserve the weak and “represent a burden to the higher ability, industry and value.” [53]

    The month after being appointed Chancellor, Hitler made a personal appeal to German business leaders to help fund the Nazi Party for the crucial months that were to follow. He argued that they should support him in establishing a dictatorship because "private enterprise cannot be maintained in the age of democracy" and because democracy would allegedly lead to communism.[54] In the following weeks, the Nazi Party received contributions from seventeen different business groups, with the largest coming from IG Farben and Deutsche Bank.[55] Many of these businesses continued to support Hitler even during the war and even profited from persecution of the Jews. The most infamous being firms like Krupp, IG Farben, and some large automobile manufacturers.[56] Historian Adam Tooze writes that the leaders of German business were therefore "willing partners in the destruction of political pluralism in Germany."[57] In exchange, owners and managers of German businesses were granted unprecedented powers to control their workforce, collective bargaining was abolished and wages were frozen at a relatively low level.[58] Business profits also rose very rapidly, as did corporate investment.[59]

    The Nazis granted millions of marks in credits to private businesses.[60] Many businessmen had friendly relations to the Nazis,[56] most notably with Heinrich Himmler and his Freundeskreis der Wirtschaft[61] Hitler’s administration decreed an October 1937 policy that “dissolved all corporations with a capital under $40,000 and forbade the establishment of new ones with a capital less than $200,000,” which swiftly effected the collapse of one fifth of all small corporations.[62]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

    Does that sound "socialist" to you? If so, then you really don't understand what socialism means.
  3. Standard membervivify
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    06 Apr '19 03:18
    @no1marauder said
    That's very sad.
    There's no need for that. Whodey's being genuine in his responses and questions. Thank you for your contributions, but let's not criticize anyone for being honest about what they don't understand.
  4. SubscriberWajoma
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    06 Apr '19 04:14
    @no1marauder said
    Here's a Wiki summary of Nazi economic policies:

    The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic. But after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations ...[text shortened]...

    Does that sound "socialist" to you? If so, then you really don't understand what socialism means.
    Private ownership but state control, versus, state ownership and state control.

    There's not a lot in it No1. It's a technicality only. The parallels, nazis and socialists, you're the one drawing them.
  5. Standard membershavixmir
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    06 Apr '19 04:47
    @wajoma said
    Private ownership but state control, versus, state ownership and state control.

    There's not a lot in it No1. It's a technicality only. The parallels, nazis and socialists, you're the one drawing them.
    Dumb ass.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
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    06 Apr '19 04:49
    @whodey said
    I'm not sure how controlling the means of production in their society by a centralized state power differ from a system where producers possess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods, but whatever.
    No... socialism is the people who produce control production and distribution.
    At least act like you know what we’re talking about.

    Capitalists flourished in Nazi Germany.
    Yes, they had to join the party, but hey... nazis, republicans... all the bloody same.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    06 Apr '19 04:501 edit
    @vivify said
    There's no need for that. Whodey's being genuine in his responses and questions. Thank you for your contributions, but let's not criticize anyone for being honest about what they don't understand.
    No, he isn't.

    He's started literally dozens of threads trying to claim the Nazis were "leftist" and has been confronted with the overwhelming evidence to the contrary every time.
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Apr '19 06:12
    @whodey said
    I'm not sure how controlling the means of production in their society by a centralized state power differ from a system where producers possess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods, but whatever.
    And yet you wonder why I've called you an anarchist. You say you hate all government. Most of your diatribes focus on this "centralized state power", and yet you don't even know that it's the Right who dream of this all the time and take steps to bring it to fruition. I find it interesting that you're not alone in being utterly stupid. Almost every time you rail about the Left doing something, it's the Right that has been most successful at doing exactly what you claim the Left is doing.

    Clearly you like Fascism, especially Trump's version of it, but only because you are so successful at deluding yourself.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Apr '19 06:15
    @whodey said

    I can't help the fact that society has been lied to regarding the Nazi regime, but that does not mean I have to continue to believe the lie.
    Whatever helps you sleep at night, man. You sound more like Alex Jones every day.
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Apr '19 06:27
    @no1marauder said

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

    Does that sound "socialist" to you? If so, then you really don't understand what socialism means.
    He's been schooled on this so many times it's ridiculous.

    And what's really ridiculous is that he's failed every single time he's tried to vilify the Left by putting it in Republican clothing. No wonder he likes Trump. He believes his own lies, too.

    So now he's begun to chastise the Right for not being far enough right. Apparently, even the Third Reich wasn't far enough Right for him.

    "You know what the Right's problem is? They're too far Left!!" That's what this "The Nazis were Leftists" is all about.
  11. Germany
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    06 Apr '19 08:36
    @no1marauder said
    No, he isn't.

    He's started literally dozens of threads trying to claim the Nazis were "leftist" and has been confronted with the overwhelming evidence to the contrary every time.
    What's interesting is that this kind of propaganda - being loyally regurgitated by whodey as usual - has emerged exactly at the same time as fascism has re-emerged in the West.
  12. Standard membervivify
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    06 Apr '19 12:28
    @no1marauder said
    No, he isn't.

    He's started literally dozens of threads trying to claim the Nazis were "leftist" and has been confronted with the overwhelming evidence to the contrary every time.
    okay. Didn't know that. Sorry.
  13. SubscriberWajoma
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    06 Apr '19 13:14
    @kazetnagorra said
    What's interesting is that this kind of propaganda - being loyally regurgitated by whodey as usual - has emerged exactly at the same time as fascism has re-emerged in the West.
    It's probably a bit strong to call the Islamic faith - fascism, that sort of talk will get you banned all over the show.
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    06 Apr '19 14:301 edit
    @wajoma said
    Private ownership but state control, versus, state ownership and state control.

    There's not a lot in it No1. It's a technicality only. The parallels, nazis and socialists, you're the one drawing them.
    Indeed.

    Hitler once said, "Why nationalize industry when you can nationalize the people?"

    The issue was centralized control. The fact that Hitler did not own these corporations in name did not mean he did not have full control, which he did have

    Hitler was at least smart enough to understand that private industry is best run by those who are experts at it rather than bureaucrats, which made the German economy much stronger than the Russian economy.
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    06 Apr '19 14:32
    @suzianne said
    He's been schooled on this so many times it's ridiculous.

    And what's really ridiculous is that he's failed every single time he's tried to vilify the Left by putting it in Republican clothing. No wonder he likes Trump. He believes his own lies, too.

    So now he's begun to chastise the Right for not being far enough right. Apparently, even the Third Reich wasn't far en ...[text shortened]... ght's problem is? They're too far Left!!" That's what this "The Nazis were Leftists" is all about.
    These posts are not for the Left wing trolls like you Suzy.

    Nothing I say will ever sway the lies that pour out of the Left.
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