Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    26 May '18 19:30
    The voters in the Republic overwhelmingly pass a referendum repealing a constitutional ban on abortion. https://www.politico.eu/article/official-result-percent-back-repealing-irish-abortion-ban-eighth-amendment/

    Maybe the priests don't run the place like Finnegan once said.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    26 May '18 19:42
    I was surprised to see that the ACLEI (Artificially Created Loyalist Enclave in Ireland) still has harsh anti-abortion laws despite being under the control of enlightened Brit Protestants rather than backward Irish Catholics:

    Because while we celebrate that more than 2 million women in Ireland have just gained control over their own bodies, we have to remember that around 1 million women in Northern Ireland are still subject to some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the world – laws which carry the harshest criminal penalties in the whole of Europe.

    The law in Northern Ireland dates back to 1861. It’s literally from the Victorian-era. It makes abortion illegal in almost every circumstance – even in cases of rape or fatal foetal abnormalities.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/26/now-give-us-the-right-to-abortion-in-northern-ireland
  3. Zugzwang
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    26 May '18 20:103 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The voters in the Republic overwhelmingly pass a referendum repealing a constitutional ban on abortion. https://www.politico.eu/article/official-result-percent-back-repealing-irish-abortion-ban-eighth-amendment/

    Maybe the priests don't run the place like Finnegan once said.
    In contrast to the self-described Irish American No1Marauder, Finnegan was born in and
    grew up in the Republic of Ireland, so he has experienced much more of life there.
    I have no doubt that Finnegan welcomes the recent changes in the Republic of Ireland,
    including electing an openly gay Taoiseach and easing its strict laws about abortion.

    "The country [vote] has enabled the government in Dublin to introduce abortion in
    Ireland’s health service *up to 12 weeks* into pregnancy."
    --'The Guardian'

    But Ireland's 'pro-choice' law will still be significantly more restrictive than the 1967 law
    in England, Scotland, and Wales, which permits abortions *up until 24 weeks* into pregnancy.
    Women in England, Scotland, and Wales will have *more freedom of choice* than women in the Republic of Ireland.
    I expect that there still will be Irish women who travel to England in order to terminate
    their pregnancies after the 12th week up until the 24th week.

    Historians concur with Finnegan that the Catholic Church has exerted a disproportionately
    powerful influence on the Republic of Ireland's social and political life, though this has
    begun to change as Irish people (like most Europeans) have become less religious.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ireland_That_We_Dreamed_Of

    Éamon de Valera made this famous speech about his vision of an ideal Ireland.
    "The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home
    of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who,
    satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose
    countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be
    joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of
    athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for
    the wisdom of serene old age. The home, in short, of a people living the life that God
    desires that men should live. With the tidings that make such an Ireland possible, St. Patrick
    came to our ancestors fifteen hundred years ago promising happiness here no less than
    happiness hereafter. It was the pursuit of such an Ireland that later made our country
    worthy to be called the island of saints and scholars. It was the idea of such an Ireland -
    happy, vigorous, spiritual - that fired the imagination of our poets; that made successive
    generations of patriotic men give their lives to win religious and political liberty; and that
    will urge men in our own and future generations to die, if need be, so that these liberties
    may be preserved..."
    --Éamon de Valera

    "Although de Valera actually said "happy maidens" in the broadcast, the phrase was
    "comely maidens" in the prepared text sent in advance to the newspapers, printed in
    the following day's Irish Press, and reprinted in Maurice Moynihan's 1980 anthology."
    --Wikipedia

    "The 1943 speech in later years has been critiqued and often derided as archetypal of de Valera's
    traditionalist view of an isolationist, agricultural land where women held a traditional role."
    --Wikipedia
  4. Zugzwang
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    26 May '18 20:164 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I was surprised to see that the ACLEI (Artificially Created Loyalist Enclave in Ireland) still has harsh anti-abortion laws despite being under the control of enlightened Brit Protestants rather than backward Irish Catholics:

    Because while we celebrate that more than 2 million women in Ireland have just gained control over their own bodies, we have t ...[text shortened]... .theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/26/now-give-us-the-right-to-abortion-in-northern-ireland
    Northern Ireland's anti-abortion laws evidently are based upon the politics there rather
    than upon any intrinsic reactionary nature of 'Brit (sic) Protestants' (to quote No1Marauder).

    "The country [vote] has enabled the government in Dublin to introduce abortion in
    Ireland’s health service *up to 12 weeks* into pregnancy."
    --'The Guardian'

    But Ireland's 'pro-choice' law will still be significantly more restrictive than the 1967 law
    in England, Scotland, and Wales, which permits abortions *up until 24 weeks* into pregnancy.
    I expect that there still will be Irish women who travel to England in order to terminate
    their pregnancies after the 12th week up until the 24th week.

    Women in England, Scotland, and Wales in 1967 already had significantly more freedom
    of choice on abortion than women in the Republic of Ireland will have later in 2018.
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    26 May '18 20:171 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    In contrast to the self-described Irish American No1Marauder, Finnegan was born in and
    grew up in the Republic of Ireland, so he has experienced much more of life there.
    I have no doubt that Finnegan welcomes the recent changes in the Republic of Ireland,
    including electing an openly gay Taoiseach and easing its strict laws about abortion.

    "The cou ...[text shortened]... t view of an isolationist, agricultural land where women held a traditional role."
    --Wikipedia
    Finnegan's extreme bias against Catholics showed in many of his posts. He made the statement (or a close approximation) and doubled down on it when I found it incredulous that a reasonably educated person would spew such nonsense.

    Naturally, you have dishonestly changed what he said for your own purposes; no, he did not merely assert "that the Catholic Church has exerted a disproportionately powerful influence on the Republic of Ireland's social and political life" during its existence (a fact few would deny) - he claimed a few years ago that the Republic was run by priests. That was an absurd statement then and looks even more absurd following the cited vote.
  6. Zugzwang
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    26 May '18 20:21
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Finnegan's extreme bias against Catholics showed in many of his posts. He made the statement (or a close approximation) and doubled down on it when I found it incredulous that a reasonably educated person would spew such nonsense.

    Naturally, you have dishonestly changed what he said for your own purposes; no, he did not merely assert "that the Cathol ...[text shortened]... priests. That was an absurd statement then and looks even more absurd following the cited vote.
    "Naturally, you have dishonestly changed what he [Finnegan] said for your own purposes ..."
    --No1Marauder

    FALSE. Another false accusation by No1Marauder.
    1) I don't read everything that passed between Finnegan and No1Marauder.
    2) I don't remember (why should I?) everything that Finnegan wrote.
    3) It would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to 'change' what I don't remember Finnegan writing.

    "...he [Finnegan] he claimed a few years ago that the Republic was run by priests."
    --No1Marauder

    Can No1Marauder remind me by quoting exactly what Finnegan wrote in context?
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    26 May '18 20:21
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Northern Ireland's anti-abortion laws evidently are based upon the politics there rather
    than upon any intrinsic reactionary nature of 'Brit (sic) Protestants' (to quote No1Marauder).

    "The country [vote] has enabled the government in Dublin to introduce abortion in
    Ireland’s health service *up to 12 weeks* into pregnancy."
    --'The Guardian'

    But Ir ...[text shortened]... e freedom of choice
    on abortion than women in the Republic of Ireland will have later in 2018.
    And women in the free portion of Ireland will have significantly more reproductive freedom that those in the ACLEI.

    The UK could have extended their abortion laws to the ACLEI at any time in the last 50 years, but they have chosen not to apparently, once again, pandering to loyalist reactionaries there.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    26 May '18 20:24
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Naturally, you have dishonestly changed what he [Finnegan] said for your own purposes ..."
    --No1Marauder

    FALSE. Another false accusation by No1Marauder.
    1) I don't read everything that passed between Finnegan and No1Marauder.
    2) I don't remember (why should I?) everything that Finnegan wrote.
    3) It would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to 'change' what I ...[text shortened]...
    --No1Marauder

    Can No1Marauder remind me by quoting exactly what Finnegan wrote in context?
    Finnegan can come on and deny it if he wishes; the site has made it nearly impossible to find direct quotes from years ago. But he said it.

    And you changed what he did say (which most would recognize as nonsense) to a vanilla statement that few would disagree with. That was typical intellectual dishonesty on your part.
  9. Zugzwang
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    26 May '18 20:331 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Finnegan can come on and deny it if he wishes; the site has made it nearly impossible to find direct quotes from years ago. But he said it.

    And you changed what he did say (which most would recognize as nonsense) to a vanilla statement that few would disagree with. That was typical intellectual dishonesty on your part.
    So the lying troll No1Marauder wants to put Finnegan's alleged words into my mouth?
    Finnegan and I write independently, and I have no responsibility for whatever he writes.
  10. Zugzwang
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    26 May '18 20:37
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    And women in the free portion of Ireland will have significantly more reproductive freedom that those in the ACLEI.

    The UK could have extended their abortion laws to the ACLEI at any time in the last 50 years, but they have chosen not to apparently, once again, pandering to loyalist reactionaries there.
    "...the free portion of Ireland..."
    --No1Marauder

    Everyone in Northern Ireland has the right to vote for one's political representatives,
    including Sinn Féin, though the system has long been beset with voting fraud.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/voting-fraud-in-northern-ireland-has-been-going-on-for-years-says-former-electoral-office-chief-35827669.html
    "Voting fraud in Northern Ireland has been going on for years, says former Electoral Office chief"

    So the fanatical Irish American No1Marauder would like the UK government in London to
    impose laws against the apparent will of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland?
  11. Zugzwang
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    26 May '18 20:461 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I was surprised to see that the ACLEI (Artificially Created Loyalist Enclave in Ireland) still has harsh anti-abortion laws despite being under the control of enlightened Brit Protestants rather than backward Irish Catholics:

    Because while we celebrate that more than 2 million women in Ireland have just gained control over their own bodies, we have t ...[text shortened]... .theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/26/now-give-us-the-right-to-abortion-in-northern-ireland
    "...while we celebrate that more than 2 million women in Ireland have just gained control over their own bodies."
    --No1Marauder

    Not yet, a woman (whose life was not in danger) could not have a legal abortion in the Republic of Ireland tomorrow.
    The specific law (which could be the subject of political compromise) still needs to be passed.

    The vote should be celebrated as a beginning, NOT a completion of women's struggle for freedom of choice.

    "The country [vote] has enabled the government in Dublin to introduce abortion in
    Ireland’s health service *up to 12 weeks* into pregnancy."
    --'The Guardian'

    But Ireland's 'pro-choice' law will still be significantly more restrictive than the 1967 law
    in England, Scotland, and Wales, which permits abortions *up until 24 weeks* into pregnancy.

    Women in England, Scotland, and Wales in 1967 already had significantly more freedom
    of choice on abortion than women in the Republic of Ireland will have later in 2018.
    I expect that there still will be Irish women who travel to England in order to terminate
    their pregnancies after the 12th week up until the 24th week.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    26 May '18 20:55
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    So the lying troll No1Marauder wants to put Finnegan's alleged words into my mouth?
    Finnegan and I write independently, and I have no responsibility for whatever he writes.
    LMAO! These words are from your "mouth". aren't they?

    Historians concur with Finnegan that the Catholic Church has exerted a disproportionately powerful influence on the Republic of Ireland's social and political life.

    Except what you claimed he said wasn't what he said. Hence, the dishonesty thingy.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    26 May '18 20:58
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "...the free portion of Ireland..."
    --No1Marauder

    Everyone in Northern Ireland has the right to vote for one's political representatives,
    including Sinn Féin, though the system has long been beset with voting fraud.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/voting-fraud-in-northern-ireland-has-been-going-on-for-years-says-former-e ...[text shortened]... don to
    impose laws against the apparent will of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland?
    No, I would like the UK government to get the hell out of Ireland.

    Of course, they are imposing an occupation and oppression on the Irish People. That they pander to a local reactionary group that their policies created to violate the rights of women is rather unsurprising in that context.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    26 May '18 21:02
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Northern Ireland's anti-abortion laws evidently are based upon the politics there rather
    than upon any intrinsic reactionary nature of 'Brit (sic) Protestants' (to quote No1Marauder).

    "The country [vote] has enabled the government in Dublin to introduce abortion in
    Ireland’s health service *up to 12 weeks* into pregnancy."
    --'The Guardian'

    But Ir ...[text shortened]... re freedom
    of choice on abortion than women in the Republic of Ireland will have later in 2018.
    It's not clear what the ultimate law will be. It's fairly certain there will be no restrictions on abortion before 12 weeks (when the great majority of abortions occur - in the US "91.5% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation" https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm) but there may well be a fairly "liberal" policy towards abortions after that if they are deemed "medically necessary" or some such. We'll have to see.
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    26 May '18 21:111 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    And women in the free portion of Ireland will have significantly more reproductive freedom that those in the ACLEI.

    The UK could have extended their abortion laws to the ACLEI at any time in the last 50 years, but they have chosen not to apparently, once again, pandering to loyalist reactionaries there.
    The UK could have extended their abortion laws to the ACLEI at any time in the last 50 years, but they have chosen not to apparently, once again, pandering to loyalist reactionaries there.

    Uhm no, Northern Ireland has a devolved administration and generally runs its own affairs (unless Sinn Fein tries to bring down the government in the hope that direct rule from London will increase support for Irish nationalism). Generally, the UK government tries not to meddle in the internal affairs of the devolved administrations, except regarding things to do with the UK's common market. Contrary to No1marauder's persistent anti-UK line, the UK government is generally rather distant from Northern Ireland. It's extremely expensive to the taxpayer, its retrograde laws are out of step with the rest of the UK and it looks unnatural on a map. If Sinn Fein and Irish nationalists weren't always praising the glory days of IRA terrorism and gloating about the day when Catholics will make up a majority in NI instead of honestly attempting to address the concerns of unionists who feel their voices will be ignored in a united Ireland and their British identity stripped from them, many people in the UK and NI specifically would be fine with unification. This just hasn't been the case. No attempt at reconciliation has been made at all.

    It's disingenous to pretend as if the UK government is somehow clinging to Northern Ireland - the people of Northern Ireland themselves do not want to join Ireland. The UK's a democratic state. A poll will be held when polls show support for Irish unification at a significant level and if it wins unification will occur (although the most recent poll has support for unification at 20%]. Until then, there is nothing the UK government can do - it would be anti-democratic otherwise.

    This result is, of course, a positive and a sign that Ireland is moving past the stranglehold that Catholicism has had over it for the past age. While I'm not a fan of Mr Varadkar personally (I think he sings too much from the EU playbook), I am grateful that Ireland has a gay head of state.

    I see you have added an "i" to your word "ACLE".
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