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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 16 Oct '12 09:59 / 8 edits
    Romney has contradicted his support of the personhood amendment by now stating he supports the rape exception, i.e., that even for States that would outlaw abortion and label abortion legally as murder, the women impregnated during rape should still be able to legally obtain an abortion. That while the Constitution allows (or should allow) States to outlaw abortion, the Constitution forbids (or should forbid) States outlawing abortion in cases of rape impregnation.

    However, Paul Ryan has said he personally disagrees, and that personally he believes there should be no exception for rape in the outlawing of abortion. Also, there are multiple (at least 6) Republican Senate candidates asserting the position that women impregnated during rape should be legally forced by the government to give birth. This position is also in the Republican party platform.

    If Romney caves and/or the GOP gets it way, I have two questions.
    1. Will the rapist father have visitation rights to his child?
    2. If the raped woman terminates her pregnancy, how much jail time will she get, or will she be executed?


    The GOP war on women continues.
  2. 16 Oct '12 10:42
    Originally posted by moon1969
    If Romney caves and/or the GOP gets it way, I have two questions.
    1. Will the rapist father have visitation rights to his child?
    2. If the raped woman terminates her pregnancy, how much jail time will she get, or will she be executed?


    The GOP war on women continues.
    How do your questions change if we are talking about a day old baby?
    Do you support the right for women of children born though rape to kill their child when it is a day old? If not, why not?

    I personally am pro choice, but I can see no rational argument for giving rape victims the right to terminate while denying other people the same right - unless you consider abortion morally wrong, but not equivalent to murder.
  3. 16 Oct '12 11:36
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    How do your questions change if we are talking about a day old baby?
    Do you support the right for women of children born though rape to kill their child when it is a day old? If not, why not?
    A day old baby can be given over to foster care,child protective services, a guardian, etc. The same can not be done for a fetus.
  4. 16 Oct '12 12:27
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Romney has contradicted his support of the personhood amendment by now stating he supports the rape exception, i.e., that even for States that would outlaw abortion and label abortion legally as murder, the women impregnated during rape should still be able to legally obtain an abortion. That while the Constitution allows (or should allow) States to outlaw ...[text shortened]... how much jail time will she get, or will she be executed?


    The GOP war on women continues.
    The answer to your first question would probably depend on whether the father was convicted for his crime. The answer to your second question would depend on the state she was convicted in.
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Oct '12 13:08 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Romney has contradicted his support of the personhood amendment by now stating he supports the rape exception, i.e., that even for States that would outlaw abortion and label abortion legally as murder, the women impregnated during rape should still be able to legally obtain an abortion. That while the Constitution allows (or should allow) States to outlaw ...[text shortened]... how much jail time will she get, or will she be executed?


    The GOP war on women continues.
    The phrase "war on women" is a reprehensible, childish schoolyard bully debating tactic. It is emblematic of everything that is wrong with politics in the US.

    Abortion is a very complex and very difficult issue. You have the right to life of the fetus vs. the right to privacy of the mother. Like Romney, I've had a bit of a transformation on the issue. I used to be pro-life on the grounds that the right to life of the fetus (whether it's a full human or not) outweighed the privacy interest of the mother. Much thought on the extremely negative ramifications of carrying an unwanted child to term on both the mother and society has convinced me that the right to privacy of the mother can outweigh the life interest of a pre-viability fetus.

    But I continue to recognize and respect the other arguments of people on both sides. There are sincerely and firmly held convictions at play here about issues basic and fundamental to human existence and human rights; not just a cheap political game that clowns on both sides (but more on the liberal side) use to score cheap political points.

    Your questions, with all due respect, are stupid. Let's say the punishment was a $50 fine. Would that change your view? Invoking the specter of the death penalty is scaremongering. As for custody and parental rights, that can be handled separately and has nothing to do with this issue. Once a child is born, you handle those issues by looking at the best interest of the child, not by looking at the actions of the parents.
  6. 16 Oct '12 13:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Abortion is a very complex and very difficult issue.
    Na. Just let anyone and everyone have access 24/7, even minors, at tax payer expense even up unitl birth.

    It is just that easy sh.
  7. 16 Oct '12 13:32
    Originally posted by sh76
    Your questions, with all due respect, are stupid. Let's say the punishment was a $50 fine.
    Finally, something the democrats can get behind. Think about it, an abortion tax. There are other "sin" taxes like smoking and alcohol, why not an abortion tax?

    Brilliant!!
  8. 16 Oct '12 13:58
    Originally posted by whodey
    Finally, something the democrats can get behind. Think about it, an abortion tax. There are other "sin" taxes like smoking and alcohol, why not an abortion tax?

    Brilliant!!
    Whodey, this is the best idea you've ever had. Totally freaking brilliant.
  9. 16 Oct '12 16:56
    Originally posted by Barts
    A day old baby can be given over to foster care,child protective services, a guardian, etc. The same can not be done for a fetus.
    It is entirely possible and not hard to arrange adoption of a fetus.
  10. 16 Oct '12 17:09
    Originally posted by sh76
    The phrase "war on women" is a reprehensible, childish schoolyard bully debating tactic. It is emblematic of everything that is wrong with politics in the US.

    Abortion is a very complex and very difficult issue. You have the right to life of the fetus vs. the right to privacy of the mother. Like Romney, I've had a bit of a transformation on the issue. I used ...[text shortened]... by looking at the best interest of the child, not by looking at the actions of the parents.
    Agree, on most points, and agree that people will disagree on many parts of this issue.

    Life trumps all other natural rights, as far as I can see. Privacy of the mother? The great majority of impregnated women get that way consensually. What of the raped woman? The rape can't be undone, and the woman's hurt psyche can't be repaired. She is naturally equipped to carry and give birth to a child, and it is entirely possible to arrange adoption on delivery, so that mother need never see or meet the child.

    The raped woman exception is one of many examples of the left trying to impose a solution for a tiny minority to everyone in society. Children are not punishment, but a blessing. The child born by a raped woman may be the only sane thing she has to cling to, and the only beautiful thing to come of an ugly and painful incident.

    "War on women" is typical of Democrats using people as window dressing and props for their issues. It used to be blacks, now gays and women, are used, but these groups are generally harmed by the attention of the left.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Oct '12 17:41
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Agree, on most points, and agree that people will disagree on many parts of this issue.

    Life trumps all other natural rights, as far as I can see. Privacy of the mother? The great majority of impregnated women get that way consensually. What of the raped woman? The rape can't be undone, and the woman's hurt psyche can't be repaired. She is naturall ...[text shortened]... ys and women, are used, but these groups are generally harmed by the attention of the left.
    Children are not punishment, but a blessing. The child born by a raped woman may be the only sane thing she has to cling to, and the only beautiful thing to come of an ugly and painful incident.


    The problem is that while this may be true, it is not always necessarily true. A child can be a blessing, but it can also be a punishment in many cases. While it is a colloquialism that a child is a blessing, for a young woman who is unequipped emotionally for motherhood and is not ready to go through a pregnancy, it can ruin her life.
  12. 16 Oct '12 18:09
    Originally posted by Barts
    A day old baby can be given over to foster care,child protective services, a guardian, etc. The same can not be done for a fetus.
    So if a day old child had to be cared for by its mother for 1 year, would you support rape victims being allowed to kill their day old children?
  13. 16 Oct '12 23:12
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    How do your questions change if we are talking about a day old baby?
    Do you support the right for women of children born though rape to kill their child when it is a day old? If not, why not?

    I personally am pro choice, but I can see no rational argument for giving rape victims the right to terminate while denying other people the same right - unless you consider abortion morally wrong, but not equivalent to murder.
    I go with the Supreme Court and their viability standard. I do not think in cases of rape, a woman should be able to get an abortion in the third trimester, or kill a baby after it is born, whether a day old or two-years old.

    For a one-day old fetus, the day after conception, I think abortion should be legal in all cases. Again, I go with the viability standard of the Supreme Court.
  14. 16 Oct '12 23:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So if a day old child had to be cared for by its mother for 1 year, would you support rape victims being allowed to kill their day old children?
    The legal standard is not what happens to the baby, but if the fetus or baby is theoretically, physically, and biologically viable without the mother.

    Plus, in general, you ignorantly ignore the logic of legally treating a born human different than a fetus existing inside a woman's body.
  15. 16 Oct '12 23:21 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by dryhump
    The answer to your second question would depend on the state she was convicted in.
    I posed the question to those states. For the "median" state outlawing abortion for rape victims, what would be the prison time for a raped woman taking the morning-after pill or obtaining an abortion?

    Also, do you think there would be at least one State that would have the death penalty for a rape victim impregnated during the rape who took the morning-after pill or obtained an abortion?

    If you were a state legislator sponsoring such a bill, what would you recommend the prison time be for the raped woman?