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  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    31 Aug '10 21:14 / 3 edits
    with the tactic they so know and love... random murder.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

    The reasonable and moderate Hamas representatives, of course, reacted with their typical moderation and reasonableness.

    About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida was among them and told The Associated Press: "The Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron."

    So, should Israel respond by attacking Hamas positions in Gaza or should it ignore the provocation and press on with peace talks, hoping that peace talks will eventually stop the terrorist attacks?
  2. 31 Aug '10 22:01
    Hamas is the more militant of the political movements in Palestine, so it doesn't really have an interest in peace talks. Neither does Likud, of course. Attacking Hamas or Gaza is what Hamas wants, because that's how they maintain power. Likud just needs to pretend to want peace talks to appease the U.S.
  3. 31 Aug '10 22:07
    Originally posted by sh76
    with the tactic they so know and love... random murder.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

    The reasonable and moderate Hamas representatives, of course, reacted with their typical moderation and reasonableness.

    [i]About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida w ...[text shortened]... press on with peace talks, hoping that peace talks will eventually stop the terrorist attacks?
    Will Israel attacking hamas help bring peace closer or push it further into the future?
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    31 Aug '10 22:13
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    Will Israel attacking hamas help bring peace closer or push it further into the future?
    Obviously, it will push it father into the future, but can Israel afford to let this kind of attack go unanswered nonetheless?
  5. 01 Sep '10 00:27
    Originally posted by sh76
    Obviously, it will push it father into the future, but can Israel afford to let this kind of attack go unanswered nonetheless?
    Appeasement sh76. That always works. Ask Neville Chamberlain.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    01 Sep '10 00:35
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Appeasement sh76. That always works. Ask Neville Chamberlain.
    You're right, UP. Hamas shouldn't appease Israel they should keep the pressure on.
  7. 01 Sep '10 00:40
    Originally posted by sh76
    Obviously, it will push it father into the future, but can Israel afford to let this kind of attack go unanswered nonetheless?
    What are they gaining by responding in kind? What are they losing by not doing so?

    Option 1: they respond militarily. Then inevitably there will be some Palestinian civilian casualties. This will of course be used by Hamas to recruit more members and it will work and they will achieve their goal of delaying the peace process.

    Option 2: they don't. Well then Israel can possibly truly show that they are willing to not give hamas what they want - which is a retaliation.

    I am not saying that israel should do nothing, but not all options are military.
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    01 Sep '10 01:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    What are they gaining by responding in kind? What are they losing by not doing so?

    Option 1: they respond militarily. Then inevitably there will be some Palestinian civilian casualties. This will of course be used by Hamas to recruit more members and it will work and they will achieve their goal of delaying the peace process.

    Option 2: they don't. ...[text shortened]... taliation.

    I am not saying that israel should do nothing, but not all options are military.
    If Israel wants peace, they could start by dismantling Beit Hagai and Kiryat Arba, the two illegal settlements near Hebron where these settlers were from. Beit Hagai is where Israel is presently expanding a settlement and where one of its cabinet ministers stated in January: " 'We are building and we will build in the Land of Israel. There are “300,000” residents in Judea and Samaria [this is what right wing Israelis call the West Bank], and there will be tens of thousands more”. http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=2392

    Kiryat Arba is a hotbed of extreme Israeli ultranationalists. There is a park named after Meir Kahane, the fanatical right winger who supported the expulsion of all Arabs from "Judea and Samaria". Across the street from that park is the grave of Baruch Goldstein, a member of Kach, Kahane's organization (treated as a shrine by extreme Israeli nationalists) who murdered 29 Muslims and wounded 125 others in Hebron in 1994. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryat_Arba

    There has been continuing violence and confrontation around these illegal settlements including forays by Israeli settlers to attack local Palestinians in June. So this may not be the "random murder" that sh76 claims it is.

    EDIT: In fact, the UN documented incidents involving settlers attacking Palestinians in the same area only a couple of weeks ago:

    One of this week’s incidents resulted in the injury of a ten year-old Palestinian girl after she was physically assaulted by Israeli settlers while standing in front of her house in the Tel Rumeida area of Hebron City. In a separate incident in the same area, Israeli settlers set fire to five dunums of land, burning around 340 grape vines and olive trees. Settlers were involved in two stone throwing incidents that damaged property; one featured settlers from Kiryat Arba’ settlement (Hebron governorate) targeting nearby Palestinian houses, damaging a number of them;

    http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/991c5960adf6da4785257785004cb056?OpenDocument


    "Random murder"?
  9. 01 Sep '10 02:59
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    If Israel wants peace, they could start by dismantling Beit Hagai and Kiryat Arba, the two illegal settlements near Hebron where these settlers were from. Beit Hagai is where Israel is presently expanding a settlement and where one of its cabinet ministers stated in January: " 'We are building and we will build in the Land of Israel. There are “300,000” ...[text shortened]... d88d7/991c5960adf6da4785257785004cb056?OpenDocument


    "Random murder"?
    I won't argue with that.

    Israel has not done what they could or should to help the peace process along and the settlers don't help the cause at all.
  10. 01 Sep '10 04:44 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    with the tactic they so know and love... random murder.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_talks

    The reasonable and moderate Hamas representatives, of course, reacted with their typical moderation and reasonableness.

    About 3,000 people joined a rally in Gaza to celebrate the attack. Hamas military wing spokesman Abu Obeida w press on with peace talks, hoping that peace talks will eventually stop the terrorist attacks?
    Same goes for Israel. If Israel wants peace, then they shouldn't build the settlements on the occupied territories during the peace process. They should tear the existing ones down and use their own territory, not the one of Palestine.

    Hamas terrorists has sabotaged the peace process by killing four innocent Israelis. Will Israel terrorists sabotage the peace process by killing (how many) innocent Palestinians now? We'll wait and see.
  11. 01 Sep '10 06:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Obviously, it will push it father into the future, but can Israel afford to let this kind of attack go unanswered nonetheless?
    Should the U.K. and Spain have responded with military action after the terrorist attacks of the previous decade? If so, against whom, and how were they able "to afford" it to not respond?

    Or do you mean: can Likud afford it politically to respond peacefully? Then the answer is probably no.
  12. 01 Sep '10 07:31
    Isn't "peace process" when Israel is planning to kill children.
  13. 01 Sep '10 10:37
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Appeasement sh76. That always works. Ask Neville Chamberlain.
    with the difference that hitler is not hamas. hamas is not regular army you can crush in a decisive battle and end the war. it has gone to the point where hamas has nothing to lose if the conflict continues
  14. 01 Sep '10 10:56
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    with the difference that hitler is not hamas. hamas is not regular army you can crush in a decisive battle and end the war. it has gone to the point where hamas has nothing to lose if the conflict continues
    Isn't democracy great. When an abusing neighbour like Israel continues without law you get organisations like Hamas ELECTED into power.
  15. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    01 Sep '10 12:15 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    If Israel wants peace, they could start by dismantling Beit Hagai and Kiryat Arba, the two illegal settlements near Hebron where these settlers were from. Beit Hagai is where Israel is presently expanding a settlement and where one of its cabinet ministers stated in January: " 'We are building and we will build in the Land of Israel. There are “300,000” d88d7/991c5960adf6da4785257785004cb056?OpenDocument


    "Random murder"?
    Yes, random murder. When you lie in wait on the side of the road and wait for a random car to come along and riddle it with bullets killing the occupants without regard to age, gender or military affiliation, it's random murder.

    I know you don't like Israel's actions and policies, but that you would implicitly defend the murder of four civilians is sickening, if not surprising.

    You always whine about how I lose rationality when discussing Israel, but on this one, you're outside the mainstream.

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23872758-us-condemns-hamas-bid-to-derail-israel-palestine-peace-summit.do

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=312357

    http://www.jwire.com.au/news/australia-condemns-hebron-killings/11438

    http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=119734

    etc.

    Even the PA is against this sort of terrorism.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186680

    Of course, you also complain about the ideology of these victims and the settlers in the area, but whenever I make similar complaints against Hamas and Palestinian media and education, you explain that what they believe is their own business and what they say is not grounds for anyone to do anything.