Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Seongnam, S. Korea
    Joined
    03 Jun '17
    Moves
    19327
    02 Nov '18 04:15
    A controversial quotation:

    "What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty." ~ Hans-Hermann Hoppe


    This could really lead to some fun and interesting statements that challenge some of our positions and ideas.

    I share it because there really is a grain of truth in this that people need to consider and I am curious about what people will say.
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35846
    02 Nov '18 07:59
    @philokalia said
    A controversial quotation:

    [quote]"What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion ...[text shortened]... s a grain of truth in this that people need to consider and I am curious about what people will say.
    Demagogues have no place in democracy and only serve to destabilize and delegitimize it.
  3. Seongnam, S. Korea
    Joined
    03 Jun '17
    Moves
    19327
    02 Nov '18 11:00
    @suzianne said
    Demagogues have no place in democracy and only serve to destabilize and delegitimize it.
    That could be true.

    But in another sense, democracy is almost like a home for demagogues, right? It is a system that lends itself over well to charlatans & demagogues as the basis for victory is mass appeal.
  4. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    02 Nov '18 17:21
    It is clear that a well-functioning democracy requires an informed populace, free media and should lack a focus on individual politicians in favour of broad ideas. It is no surprise that the best-functioning democracies fulfill these criteria relatively well.

    Hoppe claims to find flaws in democracy, implies a superior alternative, but doesn't name it (in that quote, apparently he prefers a dictatorship for some reason, that reason most likely being that Hoppe is a moron). In history, we can find plenty of demagogues and populists who were never elected democratically.
  5. Seongnam, S. Korea
    Joined
    03 Jun '17
    Moves
    19327
    03 Nov '18 03:15
    Right, Kaz, I would insist that it is possible to have something like a balance between the mainstream left and right in media reporting. That would be the closest that we ever get to something that resembles the 'objective' media.

    Yet, with age, I recognized that the world of thought is far bigger than what the norms account for. The norms that we have hang on so many assumptions about the age, about the direction of society, and where we are going, and these are all powered by the attitudes and prejudices of the people who are at the top. The result is that some things which are unfounded or even reprehensible beocme like sacred cows to many people -- things which cannot be questioned and are regarded as fundamental truths.

    To me, that is the source of the progressive corruption of everything.
  6. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    03 Nov '18 08:38
    @philokalia said
    Right, Kaz, I would insist that it is possible to have something like a balance between the mainstream left and right in media reporting. That would be the closest that we ever get to something that resembles the 'objective' media.

    Yet, with age, I recognized that the world of thought is far bigger than what the norms account for. The norms that we have hang on s ...[text shortened]... ed as fundamental truths.

    To me, that is the source of the progressive corruption of everything.
    In other words: you have a queasy feeling in your belly.
  7. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    03 Nov '18 08:50
    @philokalia said
    A controversial quotation:

    [quote]"What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion ...[text shortened]... s a grain of truth in this that people need to consider and I am curious about what people will say.
    Any system where human beings are involved is flawed. Monarchies can spawn peaceful and prosperous societies, so long as the ruling families can continue to instill good values in their successors. Democracies are great if the populace is full of critical thinkers with proper education. Even theocracies can work well depending on the beliefs of those in power.

    Human beings, when all is said and done, are just animals trying to survive. We're animals trying to train other human animals to be less animalistic. At times, sections of the human race make great strides doing so. Far more often, we fail.

    I don't see any value in criticizing democracy without putting forth a better alternative. It's perfectly sensible to point out the flaws in democracy that make it weak; but to show disdain for democracy without proposing a better option seems to merely be away to brag about how much more enlightened you are than your fellow citizen.
  8. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    03 Nov '18 09:16
    @vivify said
    Any system where human beings are involved is flawed. Monarchies can spawn peaceful and prosperous societies, so long as the ruling families can continue to instill good values in their successors. Democracies are great if the populace is full of critical thinkers with proper education. Even theocracies can work well depending on the beliefs of those in power.

    Human be ...[text shortened]... on seems to merely be away to brag about how much more enlightened you are than your fellow citizen.
    The point is that monarchies can not spawn peaceful and prosperous societies (relative to multi-party democracies), no matter how well-intentioned the ruler(s). The reason is that non-democratic forms of government lack the bottom-up approach of democracies, making them more vulnerable to mismanagement and corruption. Basically, it's the same reason why planned economies failed.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    03 Nov '18 09:27
    @vivify said
    Any system where human beings are involved is flawed. Monarchies can spawn peaceful and prosperous societies, so long as the ruling families can continue to instill good values in their successors. Democracies are great if the populace is full of critical thinkers with proper education. Even theocracies can work well depending on the beliefs of those in power.

    Human be ...[text shortened]... on seems to merely be away to brag about how much more enlightened you are than your fellow citizen.
    Hoppe has a "better" solution; small, self-contained communities based on voluntary consent to a dictatorial regime of the "natural" elites. All those who are a problem to such a regime would have to be weeded out including any of the usual groups right wingers despise:

    Just as a libertarian order must always be on guard against “bad” (even if non-aggressive) neighbors by means of social ostracism, i.e., by a common “you are not welcome here” culture, so, and indeed even more vigilantly so, must it be guarded against neighbors who openly advocate communism, socialism, syndicalism or democracy in any shape or form. They, in thereby posing an open threat to all private property and property owners, must not only be shunned, but they must, to use a by now somewhat famous Hoppe-meme, be “physically removed,” if need be by violence, and forced to leave for other pastures. Not to do so inevitably leads to – well, communism, socialism, syndicalism or democracy and hence, the very opposite of a libertarian social order.

    https://misesuk.org/2017/10/20/libertarianism-and-the-alt-right-hoppe-speech-2017/

    This is really just taking the traditional right wing belief that the People are a contemptible mob that must be ruled over by their natural superiors to its extreme conclusion.
  10. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    03 Nov '18 09:46
    @no1marauder said
    Hoppe has a "better" solution; small, self-contained communities based on voluntary consent to a dictatorial regime of the "natural" elites. All those who are a problem to such a regime would have to be weeded out including any of the usual groups right wingers despise:

    Just as a libertarian order must always be on guard against “bad” (even if non-aggressive) neighbors ...[text shortened]... are a contemptible mob that must be ruled over by their natural superiors to its extreme conclusion.
    It's actually a bit worse than you paint it here: Hoppe would be fine with such communities having racist, homophobic etc. bans, and he explained current monarchies doing worse than democracies overall by pointing out that those monarchies are typically run by dark-skinned people. Yikes.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    03 Nov '18 10:101 edit
    @kazetnagorra said
    It's actually a bit worse than you paint it here: Hoppe would be fine with such communities having racist, homophobic etc. bans, and he explained current monarchies doing worse than democracies overall by pointing out that those monarchies are typically run by dark-skinned people. Yikes.
    Having those type of bans are the very purpose of communities according to Hoppe:

    One would be well on the way toward a restoration of the freedom of association and exclusion as is implied in the idea and institution of private property, and much of the social strife currently caused by forced integration would disappear, if only towns and villages could and would do what they did as a matter of course until well into the nineteenth century in Europe and the United States: to post signs regarding entrance requirements to the town, and once in town for entering specific pieces of property (no beggars, bums, or homeless, but also no Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, etc.); to expel as trespassers those who do not fulfill these requirements [...]

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    [T]rue libertarians cannot emphasize enough [...] that the restoration of private property rights and laissez-faire economics implies a sharp and drastic increase in social “discrimination” and will swiftly eliminate most if not all of the multi-cultural-egalitarian life style experiments so close to the heart of left libertarians.

    https://www.demos.org/blog/9/11/13/hans-hermann-hoppe-libertarian-extraordinaire

    It's no wonder Jared Taylor and the folks at AmRen love the guy:

    Prof. Hoppe recognizes that the right to discriminate, to keep out undesirables, is a fundamental freedom that only the servile would ever give up.

    https://www.amren.com/news/2018/03/hoppe-democracy-god-that-failed-libertarians-race-immigration/
  12. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    03 Nov '18 19:021 edit
    The best way to implement democracy is through strict term limits. When people can hold on to power for an extended period of time, that will always breed corruption. The shorter and more limited the term, the lower the motivation to make decisions based on political alliances and votes, and the less sense it makes to bribe someone in government.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    03 Nov '18 19:12
    @vivify said
    The best way to implement democracy is through strict term limits. When people can hold on to power for an extended period of time, that will always breed corruption. The shorter and more limited the term, the lower the motivation to make decisions based on political alliances and votes, and the less sense it makes to bribe someone in government.
    You can't "implement democracy" by severely restricting it.
  14. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    03 Nov '18 20:061 edit
    @no1marauder said
    You can't "implement democracy" by severely restricting it.
    That doesn't place limits on democracy, it puts limits on the elected officials.
  15. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    03 Nov '18 20:11
    @suzianne said
    Demagogues have no place in democracy and only serve to destabilize and delegitimize it.
    Here, here, only people who are sincere and tell the truth should be allowed in politics.

    LMAO!

    Funny stuff.
Back to Top