Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    15 Nov '18 23:20
    A good quote here from a nice little article:

    "The classical demand is that the state ought to treat all people equally in spite of the fact that they are very unequal. You can’t deduce from this that because people are unequal you ought to treat them unequally in order to make them equal. And that’s what social justice amounts to. It’s a demand that the state should treat people differently in order to place them in the same position. . . .To make people equal a goal of governmental policy would force government to treat people very unequally indeed."

    https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/hayek-social-justice-demands-unequal-treatment-individuals

    What are your thoughts on this or the article?
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    15 Nov '18 23:38
    No S, Sherlock.

    The rich don't need a safety net, the poor and the aged do.
  3. Standard membervivify
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    16 Nov '18 00:47
    @philokalia said
    A good quote here from a nice little article:

    "The classical demand is that the state ought to treat all people equally in spite of the fact that they are very unequal. You can’t deduce from this that because people are unequal you ought to treat them unequally in order to make them equal. And that’s what social justice amounts to. It’s a demand that the state should tr ...[text shortened]... cial-justice-demands-unequal-treatment-individuals

    What are your thoughts on this or the article?
    I've heard arguments like this before. The main problem with this argument is that "unequal" never seems to be backed by objective criteria. What makes one person "unequal" in this statement? What measure are you using for "unequal"?

    Often, "unequal" is based on personal biases used to attack programs like affirmative action, which intend to help persecuted people gain ground in society.
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Nov '18 00:51
    @Philokalia

    The State already does treat people differently. For example the police perform eviction services for the rich at the expense of the poor.

    A just society would not favor the wealthy in this way.
  5. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Nov '18 02:37
    @vivify said
    I've heard arguments like this before. The main problem with this argument is that "unequal" never seems to be backed by objective criteria. What makes one person "unequal" in this statement? What measure are you using for "unequal"?

    Often, "unequal" is based on personal biases used to attack programs like affirmative action, which intend to help persecuted people gain ground in society.
    Sure, but the issue with making a program intended to make them gain ground is that it directly takes from the ground of others, thus discriminating against them. The process itself always consumes resources.

    I can envision systems where the amount of resources consumed is actually small and the benefit large, in which case it is entirely laudable, but it is not as if slots in Post Doc programs and Philosophy chairs and junior exec positions grow on trees.

    It is directly taking from people who would win these spots solely based on merit.
  6. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Nov '18 02:38
    @athousandyoung said
    @Philokalia

    The State already does treat people differently. For example the police perform eviction services for the rich at the expense of the poor.

    A just society would not favor the wealthy in this way.
    Let me just clarify...

    Your position is that a property owner should not be able to evict someone in a pretty typical circumstance where, say, they are not paying their rent..?

    And for the Police to assist in this sort of eviction is a form of favoritism to the wealthy?
  7. Garner, NC
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    16 Nov '18 02:44
    @philokalia said
    A good quote here from a nice little article:

    "The classical demand is that the state ought to treat all people equally in spite of the fact that they are very unequal. You can’t deduce from this that because people are unequal you ought to treat them unequally in order to make them equal. And that’s what social justice amounts to. It’s a demand that the state should tr ...[text shortened]... cial-justice-demands-unequal-treatment-individuals

    What are your thoughts on this or the article?
    Personally I plan on blowing all may savings on frivolous things either before retirement or shortly after.

    Then I'll be one of the poor and our "just" government, will have to take someone else's money to support me because I will be one of the poor and will be in need of a safety net.
  8. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Nov '18 03:01
    @techsouth said
    Personally I plan on blowing all may savings on frivolous things either before retirement or shortly after.

    Then I'll be one of the poor and our "just" government, will have to take someone else's money to support me because I will be one of the poor and will be in need of a safety net.
    Right.

    If there is handsome compensation for those who have done nothing right, there is no incentive to do anything right.

    And when you are making a buck and the government is taxing it into the ground, there is a lot of incentive to cheat the government through dealing only in cash, banking offshore, etc., or, in extreme circumstances, even emigrating.

    If a government doesn't do the right thing by you, and ceases your rightful property to do bad things, why should you deal with it fairly, either?
  9. Standard membervivify
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    16 Nov '18 03:282 edits
    @philokalia said
    Sure, but the issue with making a program intended to make them gain ground is that it directly takes from the ground of others, thus discriminating against them. The process itself always consumes resources.
    Maybe. But until the majority stops discriminating against minorities, this will have to do until a better system is made.


    It is directly taking from people who would win these spots solely based on merit.

    That's a statement devoid of context or even truth. It's well known "merit" often plays a minor role in gaining positions. Ever heard the phrase "it's not what you know, it's who you know"? That saying comes from the fact that connections get people farther in life than talent, intelligent or "merit". In America, those "connections" are typically the majority—whites, especially white men. That's a club that's still far too hard for non-whites (or women) to get into.

    Hence, the need for programs that ensure equal footing. It's not perfect, but something needs to be done.
  10. SubscriberWajoma
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    16 Nov '18 03:46
    @vivify said
    Maybe. But until the majority stops discriminating against minorities, this will have to do until a better system is made.


    It is directly taking from people who would win these spots solely based on merit.

    That's a statement devoid of context or even truth. It's well known "merit" often plays a minor role in gaining positions. Ever heard the phrase "it' ...[text shortened]... the need for programs that ensure equal footing. It's not perfect, but something needs to be done.
    I'm a little stunned, can you clarify.

    You'd like to assign guilt on the basis of race and sex, while at the same time assigning victim hood on the basis of sex and race?

    ??

    ????????WTFF??
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Nov '18 03:47
    @philokalia said
    Let me just clarify...

    Your position is that a property owner should not be able to evict someone in a pretty typical circumstance where, say, they are not paying their rent..?

    And for the Police to assist in this sort of eviction is a form of favoritism to the wealthy?
    That is correct. Capitalistic property ownership is completely different from Lockean natural property rights. The latter is natural. The former requires massive State intervention to maintain.
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    16 Nov '18 03:542 edits
    @philokalia said
    A good quote here from a nice little article:

    "The classical demand is that the state ought to treat all people equally in spite of the fact that they are very unequal. You can’t deduce from this that because people are unequal you ought to treat them unequally in order to make them equal. And that’s what social justice amounts to. It’s a demand that the state should tr ...[text shortened]... cial-justice-demands-unequal-treatment-individuals

    What are your thoughts on this or the article?
    To be honest, I don't think the powers that be give a damn about social justice.

    Take Ben Carson, for example. Here is a man who clawed out of poverty in Detroit. In fact, he became such a success they named a school after him. However, after he ran for President with the GOP and now serves under Trump, they are seeking to take his name off that school.

    No, the only thing that matters to the powers that be is money and power and the politics that enables such power.

    Want another example? Dr. Gosnell was an abortion doctor that abused women as the state looked the other way. Why? Cuz abortion was a political football. Any restriction on abortion was seen as a threat. In fact, he treated white women better than minority women because they were more likely to defend themselves legally if need be. After 30 years of the state allowing him to murder and abuse minority women, they finally caught up with him. He became one of the most prolific mass murderers in US history, yet barely a peep from the media and none from the NAACP.

    No, the social justice crap is all politically motivated, one sided, and steeped in hypocrisy.

    Speaking of oppression and inequality, try being an unborn child.

    May they all burn in hell.
  13. SubscriberWajoma
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    16 Nov '18 03:55
    @athousandyoung said
    That is correct. Capitalistic property ownership is completely different from Lockean natural property rights. The latter is natural. The former requires massive State intervention to maintain.
    Landlords provide an essential service. If they were not allowed to evict anyone for non-payment for that service, rents would go through the roof, honest folk would have to cover the cost of the squatters.

    As usual collectivists like to punish innocent people, make rents exhorbitant and distort the market.
  14. Standard membervivify
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    16 Nov '18 04:08
    @wajoma said
    I'm a little stunned, can you clarify.

    You'd like to assign guilt on the basis of race and sex, while at the same time assigning victim hood on the basis of sex and race?

    ??

    ????????WTFF??
    True or false: whites in America have been guilty of systemic oppression against non-whites for centuries?
  15. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Nov '18 04:15
    @vivify said
    Maybe. But until the majority stops discriminating against minorities, this will have to do until a better system is made.


    It is directly taking from people who would win these spots solely based on merit.

    That's a statement devoid of context or even truth. It's well known "merit" often plays a minor role in gaining positions. Ever heard the phrase "it' ...[text shortened]... the need for programs that ensure equal footing. It's not perfect, but something needs to be done.
    To some degree, yes, it's who you know. Certain industries, for example, have a lot of nepotism in them, like Hollywood & TV & media. There is an over representation of Jewish people, for instance, and there is even a Hotel chain that now primarily has Indians. It's not just white men.

    But, ultimately, people are advertising jobs.

    When my company hires, of course it would help to be known by someone, but yo u still have to apply and be interviewed, and there is an intensive training process and only people who can cut it work here.

    I do not think there is discrimination -- there is only concern for properly doing the job, which is the way it should be.

    But when laws are created, then quotas have to be met, and that puts a squeeze on people.

    My friend's son over in Canada has massive issues finding a career because he can only find dead end jobs in spite of being a qualified candidate and, at several positions, it became clear to him that the option would not be there for him because he did not meet the quotas that they had in mind.

    What's he supposed to do?
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