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  1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    12 Aug '16 14:05
    This is a video of an Israeli Border Police officer seizing an 8 year old girl's bike and throwing it in some bushes apparently to make sure she did not cross over into a Jewish settlement on the West Bank: http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israeli-palestinian-relations/hebron-border-police-officer-threw-8-year-olds-bike-into-the-bushes-22717

    Now once the video became public, he was suspended but it makes you wonder whether this a routine policy (except when it gets caught on video). The officer's lawyers certainly said so:

    Lawyers for the two said the border policemen were trying to protect the girl rather than harming her, explaining that what appeared in the video as cruel behavior on the policemen’s part was actually an effort to protect her by preventing her from crossing through an area that was off limits. Unable to communicate with her in Arabic, they took away her bicycle to prevent her from risking crossing into the Jewish neighborhood, lawyers Oron Schwartz and Yogev Narkis said.

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.735220

    The implication being that areas where there are Jewish settlers are unsafe for Palestinian children to enter.

    It's way past time for Jewish settlers to be removed from Hebron IMO.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
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    13 Aug '16 05:50
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    This is a video of an Israeli Border Police officer seizing an 8 year old girl's bike and throwing it in some bushes apparently to make sure she did not cross over into a Jewish settlement on the West Bank: http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israeli-palestinian-relations/hebron-border-police-officer-threw-8-year-olds-bike-into-the-bushes-227 ...[text shortened]... nian children to enter.

    It's way past time for Jewish settlers to be removed from Hebron IMO.
    My family and I lived in Jerusalem for four years and saw that kind of thing up close. We had friends on both sides the tweed and saw cruelty up close by the Israeli's and violent responses by the Palestinians.

    One thing that was upsetting, the Israelis took water to irrigate their crops but the water left over was so contaminated the Palestinians couldn't even wash with it much less grow crops.

    There was a desalinization plant built for the Palestinians to try to make up for the water taken by the Israeli's but there would probably need to be dozens of such plants to make a real difference.

    One problem is the Palestinians are mal-treated by the rest of the Arab community, like in Jordan.

    The Jordanese could easily give the Palestinians enough land to grow crops and such but they steadfastly refuse, out of fear of reprisal for decades of bias and discrimination by the Jordanians.

    So I imagine the Israeli's, knowing that, would tend to go overboard in reprisals thinking there would not be much clammering from the Arab world.

    I may be wrong in that but that is how it seems to me.
  3. Zugzwang
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    13 Aug '16 20:41
    Originally posted by sonhouse to No1Marauder
    My family and I lived in Jerusalem for four years and saw that kind of thing up close. We had friends on both sides the tweed and saw cruelty up close by the Israeli's and violent responses by the Palestinians.

    One thing that was upsetting, the Israelis took water to irrigate their crops but the water left over was so contaminated the Pal ...[text shortened]... much clammering from the Arab world.

    I may be wrong in that but that is how it seems to me.
    The Jewish settlers in or near Hebron have long been known for their fanatical anti-Arab racism.
    In 1994, Baruch Goldstein (from a Jewish settlement near Hebron) murdered 29 unarmed
    Palestinians inside a mosque before the survivors were able to put a stop to his rampage.

    With regard to Jordan's policies toward the Palestinians, there are two issues.
    One issue is that Hashemite monarchy is worried about Palestinians getting too much influence in Jordan.
    Who remembers the 'Black September' of 1970, when Jordan's army launched a ruthless
    operation to put down the militias that had grown up in Palestinian refugee camps?

    The other issue is that Israel's hard right-wing (which included Ariel Sharon) has long
    argued that the Palestinians *already* have their own state, which should be Jordan.
    Israel's extreme right-wing has proposed 'transfer' (or 'ethnic cleansing', the forced mass
    expulsion of the Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan. Understandably, Jordan's
    government likes to do its utmost to discourage the notion that it ever would welcome that.
  4. Behind the scenes
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    13 Aug '16 21:261 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    This is a video of an Israeli Border Police officer seizing an 8 year old girl's bike and throwing it in some bushes apparently to make sure she did not cross over into a Jewish settlement on the West Bank: http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israeli-palestinian-relations/hebron-border-police-officer-threw-8-year-olds-bike-into-the-bushes-227 ...[text shortened]... nian children to enter.

    It's way past time for Jewish settlers to be removed from Hebron IMO.
    The state of Israel is guilty of some bad deeds here, no doubt about it. But it seems to me the Arab world could do more to help the Palestinians. The Saudi Royal Family is worth well over 10 trillion dollars (yes that's trillion with a t) they could donate some food aid, and money for housing and schools and scarcely notice it on their balance sheets. I'm shocked at the Arab world's cold attitude regarding the Palestinians.
  5. Zugzwang
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    13 Aug '16 21:473 edits
    Originally posted by mchill to No1Marauder
    The state of Israel is guilty of some bad deeds here, no doubt about it. But it seems to me the Arab world could do more to help the Palestinians. The Saudi Royal Family is worth well over 10 trillion dollars (yes that's trillion with a t) they could donate some food aid, and money for housing and schools and scarcely notice it on their balance sheets. I'm shocked at the Arab world's cold attitude regarding the Palestinians.
    Israel's right-wing (and its supporters in the USA) have long liked to argue that wealthy
    Arab states should pay to relocate and resettle the Palestinians in their societies.

    That ignores the fact, however, that the Palestinians have strong historical, moral, and
    even legal (based on international law, not necessarily Israeli law) claims to their own land
    (now occupied or claimed by Israel). And it ignores the fact that few Palestinians wish to live
    permanently (as opposed to working temporarily for more money) in Saudi Arabia, for instance.
    Indeed, not many Palestinians believe in the Wahhabist ideology that dominates Saudi Arabia.
    I would add that Arab cultures (including dialects of Arabic) are quite diverse.

    Regarding their economic plight under Israel's occupation, the Palestinians are *not*
    looking for foreign aid from (fickle) Arab governements as *the* solution to all their problems.
    The Palestinians are seeking an end--or at least a major easing--of Israel's occupation
    so the Palestinians (who have many skilled workers) can rebuild their own economy.
    In the Arab world, the Palestinians have a reputation for being educated and industrious.

    As a partial analogy, when a discussion comes up about racism against black people in
    the USA, do white Americans respond by complaining about how black African countries
    don't do more to help black Americans relocate to and resettle in those countries?
  6. Standard membersh76
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    14 Aug '16 15:271 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    This is a video of an Israeli Border Police officer seizing an 8 year old girl's bike and throwing it in some bushes apparently to make sure she did not cross over into a Jewish settlement on the West Bank: http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israeli-palestinian-relations/hebron-border-police-officer-threw-8-year-olds-bike-into-the-bushes-227 ...[text shortened]... nian children to enter.

    It's way past time for Jewish settlers to be removed from Hebron IMO.
    I am not interested in defending the right wing zealot settlers that, unfortunately, wield too much influence in Israel.

    However, I would point out that while there may be unsafe Jewish areas for Palestinians, the converse is true a hundredfold. Generally speaking, Jewish areas in most areas of Israel are perfectly safe for Palestinians. Palestinian cab drivers routinely service Jewish areas of west Jerusalem and Palestinian day workers in Jewish areas are completely routine.

    On the other hand, it's fairly common knowledge in Israel that a Jew walking through an Arab area is taking a foolhardy risk. Jews in the northern part of Jerusalem tend to avoid, for example, entering the old city through the Damascus gate. They'll walk 10-15 minutes out of their way to enter through the Jaffa gate so as to avoid walking through the Moslem quarter, which is almost universally considered extremely dangerous for Jews. Making a wrong turn and entering east Jerusalem is also generally considered a potentially deadly mistake.

    That there may be some religious nut job criminal zealots who harass Arabs in Hebron is not any more of a reason to remove the Jews from there than the fact that I can't walk through the Damascus gate is a reason to remove Arabs from the old city of Jerusalem.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    14 Aug '16 15:31
    Originally posted by sh76
    I am not interested in defending the right wing zealot settlers that, unfortunately, wield too much influence in Israel.

    However, I would point out that while there may be unsafe Jewish areas for Palestinians, the converse is true a hundredfold. Generally speaking, Jewish areas in most areas of Israel are perfectly safe for Palestinians. Palestinian cab driv ...[text shortened]... can't walk through the Damascus gate is a reason to remove Arabs from the old city of Jerusalem.
    You are conveniently ignoring the salient difference that Israel is an occupier and oppressor in the West Bank and that the Hebron settlements are in violation of international law.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    14 Aug '16 16:001 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    The Jewish settlers in or near Hebron have long been known for their fanatical anti-Arab racism.
    In 1994, Baruch Goldstein (from a Jewish settlement near Hebron) murdered 29 unarmed
    Palestinians inside a mosque before the survivors were able to put a stop to his rampage.

    With regard to Jordan's policies toward the Palestinians, there are two issues.
    ...[text shortened]... n's
    government likes to do its utmost to discourage the notion that it ever would welcome that.
    I was there living in Jerusalem in 1994 and I can tell you from personal knowledge my Israeli friends were horrified and shocked at those killings. His terror was not the only one committed by Israeli's, there are incidents almost every day maybe not outright murder but beatings and such by Israeli's against Palestinians.

    One thing that happens every year, at least in the 90's, maybe they stopped it now:

    We lived in Abu Tor, a small village on top of a hill overlooking the 'Peace' forest.

    There is a Palestinian town below I think called Silawan, where every year hundreds of Israeli HS kids are literally bused in and parade through town blatantly stirring up trouble by rubbing the Palestinian's noses in the fact Israeli's won in 1947.

    I think and thought that kind of state sponsored BS unconscionable. How can any Palestinian become friends with Israeli's under that kind of sponsored attacks each and every anniversary of something that happened even before the first half of the 20th century.

    I was appalled when I first saw that take place.

    Don't know if they stopped it now. They should never have STARTED that parody of parade.

    It seems to me damaging to Palestinians but also damaging to Israeli youth who are getting anti-Palestinian training by the right wing government in the Knesset.

    I don't think anyone not living in Israel ATT would have even known about such an atrocity, it certainly doesn't make international news.
  9. Zugzwang
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    14 Aug '16 20:30
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I was there living in Jerusalem in 1994 and I can tell you from personal knowledge my Israeli friends were horrified and shocked at those killings. His terror was not the only one committed by Israeli's, there are incidents almost every day maybe not outright murder but beatings and such by Israeli's against Palestinians.

    One thing that happens every ye ...[text shortened]... ATT would have even known about such an atrocity, it certainly doesn't make international news.
    I would not dispute that most, though not all, Israeli Jews disapproved of Baruch Goldstein's murders.
    But the fact that it happened (and it was far from the first or only case of unprovoked
    Jewish settler violence against Palestinians) does *not* help make the Palestinians feel
    any safer around the armed Jewish settlers who fanatically hate them.

    In the southern USA some years ago, should black Americans have felt safe when the
    KKK was strutting around, even if many other white Americans would remark privately,
    after another black man had been lynched, "It's so uncouth of the KKK! They have no
    class. After that lynching, I'm not going to invite any KKK members to my dinner party."

    By the way, Baruch Goldstein's grave has become a shrine to extreme right-wing Israeli Jews.
  10. Standard memberfinnegan
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    14 Aug '16 23:301 edit
    Originally posted by mchill
    The state of Israel is guilty of some bad deeds here, no doubt about it. But it seems to me the Arab world could do more to help the Palestinians. The Saudi Royal Family is worth well over 10 trillion dollars (yes that's trillion with a t) they could donate some food aid, and money for housing and schools and scarcely notice it on their balance sheets. I'm shocked at the Arab world's cold attitude regarding the Palestinians.
    Time you woke up to the fact that the neighbouring states have never been particularly motivated to help or support Palestinians and never been particularly motivated to confront Isreal. This is relevant to the shrieking, nationalist rhetoric which claims that tiny Israel (the wealthiest and best armed state in the region) is at constant risk of annihilation at the hands of its hostile neighbours. Rubbish. It has never been true. It suits the extreme nationallists to sustain a level of fear in order to retain support for Israel's aggressive activities.
  11. Standard membersh76
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    14 Aug '16 23:39
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    You are conveniently ignoring the salient difference that Israel is an occupier and oppressor in the West Bank and that the Hebron settlements are in violation of international law.
    Yes, because I don't see that as salient on this issue. Under 1,000 Jews live in Hebron, many second or even third generation. The settlement was actually agreed to both at Oslo and in a subsequent agreement between Netanyahu and Arafat. Expelling a community merely because they're Israeli or Jewish is hardly my idea of justice.
  12. Standard membersh76
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    14 Aug '16 23:42
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Time you woke up to the fact that the neighbouring states have never been particularly motivated to help or support Palestinians and never been particularly motivated to confront Isreal. This is relevant to the shrieking, nationalist rhetoric which claims that tiny Israel (the wealthiest and best armed state in the region) is at constant risk of annihilati ...[text shortened]... llists to sustain a level of fear in order to retain support for Israel's aggressive activities.
    Israel's lack of constant risk of annihilation is only a function of the fact that it's the best armed state in the region. If its military position slips below that of any of its neighbors for a moment, it gets pushed into the sea. That's a reality that they have to live with that the Ivory Tower tsk'ers don't.
  13. Standard memberfinnegan
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    15 Aug '16 00:44
    Originally posted by sh76
    Israel's lack of constant risk of annihilation is only a function of the fact that it's the best armed state in the region. If its military position slips below that of any of its neighbors for a moment, it gets pushed into the sea. That's a reality that they have to live with that the Ivory Tower tsk'ers don't.
    Annihilation is not a serious risk and has not been in its history from and including 1947. The level of threat, and the hostility of neighbours, is grossly exaggerated.

    By all means Israel is entitled to self defence. It is not entitled to armed aggression.
  14. Standard memberfinnegan
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    15 Aug '16 00:50
    Originally posted by sh76
    Yes, because I don't see that as salient on this issue. Under 1,000 Jews live in Hebron, many second or even third generation. The settlement was actually agreed to both at Oslo and in a subsequent agreement between Netanyahu and Arafat. Expelling a community merely because they're Israeli or Jewish is hardly my idea of justice.
    Expelling a community merely because they're Israeli or Jewish is hardly my idea of justice

    http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=772398

    As always, I try to save you guys the struggle of actually reading the links.

    Al-Araqib is one of 35 Bedouin villages considered “unrecognized” by the Israeli state. According to ACRI, more than half of the approximately 160,000 Negev Bedouins reside in unrecognized villages.

    Rights groups have claimed that the demolition of al-Araqib and other unrecognized Bedouin villages is a central Israeli policy aimed at removing the indigenous Palestinian population from the Negev and transferring them to government-zoned townships to make room for the expansion of Jewish Israeli communities.

    Indigenous rights groups have also pointed out that the transfer of the Bedouins into densely populated townships also removes them from their traditional semi-nomadic lifestyles which is dependent on access to a wide range of grazing land for their animals.

    Former UN Special Rapporteur on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples James Anaya released a report on the treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev back in 2011, shortly before the Israeli cabinet approved plans to relocate some 30,000 Bedouins from 13 unrecognized villages to government-approved townships, reporting that Bedouins in the permanent townships "rank on the bottom of all social and economic indicators and suffer from the highest unemployment rates and income levels in Israel."

    While Bedouins of the Negev are Israeli citizens, the villages unrecognized by the government have faced relentless efforts by the Israeli authorities to expel them from their lands in order to make room for Jewish Israeli homes.

    The classification of their villages as “unrecognized” prevents Bedouins from developing or expanding their communities, as their villages are considered illegal by Israeli authorities. According to ACRI, entire Bedouin communities have been issued demolition orders in the past.

    As a result, most of al-Araqib’s residents have left over the years to neighboring towns.
    Israeli authorities have also refused to connect unrecognized Bedouin villages to the national water and electricity grids, while excluding the communities from access to health and educational services, and basic infrastructure.

    The unrecognized Bedouin villages were established in the Negev soon after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war that wrought the state of Israel. Many of the Bedouins were forcibly transferred to the village sites during the 17-year period when Palestinians inside Israel were governed under Israeli military law, which ended shortly before Israel's military takeover of Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in 1967.

    Now more than 60 years later, the villages have yet to be recognized by Israel and live under constant threats of demolition and forcible removal.

    Meanwhile, Israeli Jewish settlements in the Negev continuously expand, with five new Jewish communities approved last year. According to an investigation undertaken by Israeli rights groups ACRI and Bimkom, two of the approved settlements are located in areas where unrecognized Bedouin villages already exist.

    The plan would see the displacement of at least 7,500 Bedouins from the unrecognized villages of Katamat and Beer Hadaj.
  15. Standard membersh76
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    15 Aug '16 03:24
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Annihilation is not a serious risk and has not been in its history from and including 1947. The level of threat, and the hostility of neighbours, is grossly exaggerated.
    The level of threat, perhaps. The hostility, I don't think so. the level of hostility, as demonstrated by the stabbing campaigns and the consistent media extolling the murder of Israelis as holy and martyrdom, is all too real and depressing.
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