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Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
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    02 Oct '15 14:05
    http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/arab-gunmen-murder-jewish-couple-as-their-children-watch/2015/10/02/

    Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the couple’s murder. A spokesman for Hamas’ military wing in Gaza, welcomed the murder and said it’s a natural reaction against the “Israeli crimes,” adding that this attack is just the beginning.


    Isn't it just so sweet that, hate each other though they might, Fatah and Hamas can agree that the random murder of two civilian parents on front of their four children is to be extolled and praised?
  2. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 14:09
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/arab-gunmen-murder-jewish-couple-as-their-children-watch/2015/10/02/

    [quote]Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the couple’s murder. A spokesman for Hamas’ military wing in Gaza, welcomed the murder and said it’s a natural reaction against the “Israeli crimes,” adding ...[text shortened]... om murder of two civilian parents on front of their four children is to be extolled and praised?
    Never mind that, when are they going to desolve the evil Zionist regime? 😛
  3. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 14:12
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/arab-gunmen-murder-jewish-couple-as-their-children-watch/2015/10/02/

    [quote]Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the couple’s murder. A spokesman for Hamas’ military wing in Gaza, welcomed the murder and said it’s a natural reaction against the “Israeli crimes,” adding ...[text shortened]... om murder of two civilian parents on front of their four children is to be extolled and praised?
    Maybe the UN can respond by condemning Israel.
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    02 Oct '15 14:141 edit
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Maybe the UN can respond by condemning Israel.
    Condemn them? Why not just give Iran some nukes?

    My bad, Obama already took care of that.
  5. Germany
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    02 Oct '15 17:15
    Murder is bad, m'kay.
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Oct '15 17:32
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/arab-gunmen-murder-jewish-couple-as-their-children-watch/2015/10/02/

    [quote]Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the couple’s murder. A spokesman for Hamas’ military wing in Gaza, welcomed the murder and said it’s a natural reaction against the “Israeli crimes,” adding ...[text shortened]... om murder of two civilian parents on front of their four children is to be extolled and praised?
    You never seem to start threads when Palestinians are murdered by Israelis like 18 month old Ali Saad Dawabsheh who was burned to death in her home by Israeli "settlers" i.e. invaders and occupiers of Palestinian land.

    Why is that?
  7. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 18:08
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    You never seem to start threads when Palestinians are murdered by Israelis like 18 month old Ali Saad Dawabsheh who was burned to death in her home by Israeli "settlers" i.e. invaders and occupiers of Palestinian land.

    Why is that?
    A typically bigoted anti-Israeli response. Does the Israeli government welcomed murders and said it’s a natural reaction and add that this attack is just the beginning? No, Israeli deals routinely with vicious murders the same sort of people that attacked our country on 9-11 and therefore should be given broad latitude when defending itself
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    02 Oct '15 20:398 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/arab-gunmen-murder-jewish-couple-as-their-children-watch/2015/10/02/

    [quote]Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the couple’s murder. A spokesman for Hamas’ military wing in Gaza, welcomed the murder and said it’s a natural reaction against the “Israeli crimes,” adding ...[text shortened]... om murder of two civilian parents on front of their four children is to be extolled and praised?
    This murder, like all political murders, was immoral and wrong, without qualification. Any ambiguity about this comment is not my fault - I cannot make it more clear.

    sh76 often makes a genuine effort to discuss Israeli affairs in a moderate and intelligent manner but at times he descends to the most unleasant and intolerant bigotry; sadly this is one such occasion. The object of the distasteful and dishonest original post, and the thread, seems to be clearly to demonize Fatah and Hamas by caricaturing their activities as though they were apolitical, arbitrary and meaningless acts of vicious barbarity. Implicitly, such "terrorists" cannot be respected as fellow humans and implicitly, then, violent reprisals by the Israeli forces against Palestinians in the West Bank are to be expected and welcomed. On this forum, there is no shortage of voices willing to join the cackle of unthinking consent to this poisonous, hate provoking version of events.

    This murder was not, however, a "random murder". The male victim was an American citizen and a rabbi and the family was driving to or from one of the illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank. The term "civilian" is also disingenuous in this context; most of the illegal settlers are civilians, though most Israeli men do military service and have military training; most settlers are well armed and politically very active indeed in their selfish and illegal project of settlement. That is not quite what the term "civilian" would usually convey in any other context. Incidentally, in the West Bank do not Jews have different coloured number plates to Palestinians on their cars and are there not many separate roads for the settlers to use as part of the apartheid regime? How is that the behaviour of people who are described as "civilians" in this context?

    If we are to understand (I did not say approve) such acts of violence we need to understand why a Palestinian political organisation would regard an American immigrant settler, a rabbi in a place filled with zionist zealots, as a legitimate target for political violence. It is useful also to understand why the Israeli government and military will regard the illegal settlers as worthy of massive support while the Palestinians of the West Bank are available and suitable targets for a disproportionate collective punishment.

    We do not arrive at this understanding by means of empty rhetoric and meaningless caricature. It would be useful to reference, for example, a detailed study of the apartheid regime in the west Bank such as this report: http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iopt1210webwcover_0.pdf

    "This report consists of a series of case studies that compare Israel’s different treatment of Jewish settlements to nearby Palestinian communities throughout the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. It describes the two-tier system of laws, rules, and services that Israel operates for the two populations in areas in the West Bank under its exclusive control, which provide preferential services, development, and benefits for Jewish settlers while imposing harsh conditions on Palestinians. The report highlights Israeli practices the only discernable purposes of which appear to be promoting life in the settlements while in many instances stifling growth in Palestinian communities and even forcibly displacing Palestinian residents. Such different treatment, on the basis of race, ethnicity, and national origin and not narrowly tailored to meet security or other justifiable goals, violates the fundamental prohibition against discrimination under human rights law.
    It is widely acknowledged that Israel’s settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, violate international humanitarian law, which prohibits the occupying power from transferring its civilian population into the territories it occupies; Israel appears to be the only country to contest that its settlements are illegal. Human Rights Watch continues to agree with the nearly universal position that Israel should cease its violation of international humanitarian law by removing its citizens from the West Bank. This report focuses on the less-discussed discriminatory aspect of Israeli settlement policies, and analyzes serious and ongoing violations of other rights in that context. "


    When one takes the minimal effort required to appreciate the devastating level of oppression experienced by Palestinians under Israeli occupation in the West Bank, then one naturally continues to wish the Palestinians would submit their cares to the arbitration of a just God, or Israeli law, or international law, or international opinion, or the good fairy, but one might still, without approval, understand how for some Palestinians, the one remaining option with any semblance of dignity is to resist and, for some, that might be thought to include a case for violence, not unlike the arguments used by American citizens to defend their right to bear arms against tyranny. I am non violent and argue for international law, but of course most Americans (especially on this forum) and Zionist Israelis have no respect for international law in this context or any other.

    sh76 - the bigotry in your post is objectionable and beneath you.

    Edit: I have been reading through the material on the Jewish Post link and my word you read some depressing trash. This is conspiracy theory and nationalistic bigotry on a big scale. The Zionist propaganda machine is just contemptible. You need to get a lilfe and read something better.
  9. Joined
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    02 Oct '15 21:00
    Originally posted by finnegan
    This murder, like all political murders, was immoral and wrong, without qualification. Any ambiguity about this comment is not my fault - I cannot make it more clear.

    sh76 often makes a genuine effort to discuss Israeli affairs in a moderate and intelligent manner but at times he descends to the most unleasant and intolerant bigotry; sadly this is one ...[text shortened]... his context or any other.

    sh76 - the bigotry in your post is objectionable and beneath you.
    There is absolutely nothing bigoted in Sh's post.
  10. The Catbird's Seat
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    02 Oct '15 21:03
    Originally posted by finnegan
    This murder, like all political murders, was immoral and wrong, without qualification.

    sh76 often makes a genuine effort to discuss Israeli affairs in a moderate and intelligent manner but at times he descends to the most unleasant and intolerant bigotry; sadly this is one such occasion. The object of the distasteful and dishonest original post, and th ...[text shortened]... nist propaganda machine is just contemptible. You need to get a lilfe and read something better.
    Any ambiguity about this comment is not my fault - I cannot make it more clear.

    Then you write on, very much introducing ambiguity, for several paragraphs justifying the murders, and attempting to portray sh76 badly. Please!!!
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
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    02 Oct '15 21:191 edit
    Of course I introduce ambiguity. I am objecting to its absence in sh76's post. We need balanced and fair reporting and honest debate, not hate speech.

    http://www.btselem.org/firearms/20150628_firing_live_ammunition_at_demonstrators

    In the last few months, B’Tselem has documented dozens of cases in the Ramallah area of the West Bank in which Palestinians were injured, some severely, by live ammunition fired by Israeli security forces. In most cases, it appears that the ammunition used was 0.22 inch caliber bullets (Ruger rifle bullets, nicknamed Two-Two for their caliber). Two-Twos are live ammunition whose impact is less severe than that of “ordinary” bullets, yet even so they can be lethal and inflict serious injuries. It is hard to establish definitively whether a particular injury is caused by a Two-Two or by an ordinary bullet, as their caliber is almost identical. However, many activists recognize both the Ruger rifles used to fire Two-Two bullets as well as the distinctive sound they make when firing. In addition, some Ruger rifles are equipped with a suppressor. Therefore, when a sniper aims a rifle at demonstrators and a person then sustains a live-bullet injury although no gunshot was heard, it is clear the ammunition was Two-Two bullets.

    http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-israel-palestinians-shooting-policy-20150925-story.html
    The government is bent on continuing to address the situation in East Jerusalem only by force," B'Tselem said.

    It said that while police must keep public order and protect residents, "the approach that has been taken is unlawful and immoral. It ignores the deep-seated discrimination in East Jerusalem and the daily violations of the human rights of its Palestinian residents, while using increasingly violent measures against them."

    The policy shift follows the death last week of an Israeli motorist in a crash after his car was struck by stones.

    In recent days, East Jerusalem has witnessed a rise in clashes between Israeli police and Palestinian residents that are mainly concentrated at the Al Aqsa mosque, which is at a site also revered by Jews as the Temple Mount.

    Police restrictions at times on Palestinian movements in the area have provoked clashes and stone-throwing at police and civilians in East Jerusalem and elsewhere in the city.

    Meanwhile on Friday, Palestinians buried Ahmad Khatatbeh, 25, in Beit Furik near Nablus after he succumbed to wounds sustained from Israeli army gunfire last Friday during clashes in his village.

    More than 23 Palestinians have been shot and killed by the Israeli army in the West Bank since the beginning of the year.
  12. The Catbird's Seat
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    02 Oct '15 21:48
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Of course I introduce ambiguity. I am objecting to its absence in sh76's post. We need balanced and fair reporting and honest debate, not hate speech.

    http://www.btselem.org/firearms/20150628_firing_live_ammunition_at_demonstrators

    In the last few months, B’Tselem has documented dozens of cases in the Ramallah area of the West Bank in which Pales ...[text shortened]... e been shot and killed by the Israeli army in the West Bank since the beginning of the year.
    Of course I introduce ambiguity.

    Why the initial disclaimer, or hypocrisy?

    .223 bullets are used by almost all modern armed forces. There is a metric equivalent 5.45mm. They aren't different from "ordinary bullets" except lighter than the older .30 cal, like the 7.62mm enabling soldiers to carry more rounds than before.The military counter argument is that it takes more of the smaller bullets to kill one of the enemy. Of course, bullets differ both in material, design and weight, and there is nothing special about the .22 bullets used by the Israeli military and security forces,

    IMHO, Israeli security forces and military are extremely selective and restrained in their use of deadly force when confronted by terrorists who indiscriminately kill both Israelis and Palestinians who happen to get in the way.
  13. Standard memberfinnegan
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    02 Oct '15 22:28
    Originally posted by normbenign
    [b]Of course I introduce ambiguity.

    Why the initial disclaimer, or hypocrisy?

    .223 bullets are used by almost all modern armed forces. There is a metric equivalent 5.45mm. They aren't different from "ordinary bullets" except lighter than the older .30 cal, like the 7.62mm enabling soldiers to carry more rounds than before.The military counter ...[text shortened]... errorists who indiscriminately kill both Israelis and Palestinians who happen to get in the way.[/b]
    Why the initial disclaimer, or hypocrisy?

    It is not hypocrisy. I do not favour violence (hence my disclaimer) but that does not prevent me seeking to understand why other people in different situations do favour violence.

    It is easy to imply that they favour violence owing to an intrinsic defect of personality - they are inherently evil for example. Labelling them as terrorists is another way to reduce them from complex political actors to simplified agents of violence - stripping away the political meaning of their violent act.

    An especially easy and disgraceful move is the shift from identifying the murderers as "terrorists" and then, as you did here, identifying stone throwing children as "terrorists". It makes the term meaningless in reality. The deception in your post is that you talk about the shooting of protesters as though you were referring to the shooting of active terrorists who would ruthlessly kill if not stopped. That is flying in the face of the evidence before you - the IDF are not shooting terrorists, they are shooting protesters and often they are shooting children.

    You say there is nothing special about the ,22 bullets used by the IDF against protesters. That is also what the Human Rights campaigners are saying. There is an effort to somehow avert our attention from the blunt reality that the IDF are shooting protesters dead, using language to suggest that somehow the use of .22 bullets shows what you call restraint and the killing of children shows selectivity. If that is the response to these feeble protests, if even a child shouting in the street can be (and has been) shot dead, then what is the distinction that you wish to make between this and murderous terrorism?

    What right to protest, if any, would you offer to a Palestinian on the West Bank? How would that compare with the right you enjoy and use and boast about to carry a gun wherever you go? Why are your rights so different and so much more important than theirs?
  14. Zugzwang
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    02 Oct '15 23:191 edit
    Originally posted by Finnegan to Sh76
    This murder, like all political murders, was immoral and wrong, without qualification. Any ambiguity about this comment is not my fault - I cannot make it more clear.

    sh76 often makes a genuine effort to discuss Israeli affairs in a moderate and intelligent manner but at times he descends to the most unleasant and intolerant bigotry; sadly this ...[text shortened]... nist propaganda machine is just contemptible. You need to get a lilfe and read something better.
    Months ago, Sh76, an American Jew, got much easy applause here (though not from me)
    for expressing his wish to meet people on the other side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
    But Sh76 apparently preferred to meet random Muslims (most of whom probably would
    not be Palestinian) at an American mosque rather than meeting real Palestinians, both
    Muslim and non-Muslim. I suggested that Sh76 contact the Palestinian student group
    (which likely exists) at his university, but Sh76 seemed uninterested. So what happened?
    Did Sh76 ever attempt to follow up? Or was that more of his pseudo-'pro-peace' posturing?

    If an American (particularly at a university) has a sincere wish to meet Palestinians for
    non-threatening dialogue, then it's usually not hard to do. While I cannot say that I represent
    Palestinians, I have given some talks (explaining some Palestinian perspectives) to some
    pro-Israeli Jewish audiences. I expect to get some rejection, even hatred, yet I have been
    touched when what I say has seemed to influence some supporters of Israel to think differently.

    We could post some articles about Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli Jewish *civilian* doctor
    who murdered 29 unarmed Palestinian Muslims at prayer in a mosque. We could cite
    the fact that Baruch Goldstein's grave has become a site of pilgrimage for some Jews
    (including from the USA) who apparently share his fanatical hatred of all Palestinians.
    We could add that Baruch Goldstein seems to be perceived increasingly sympathetically
    in Israel as more Israeli Jews evidently become increasingly intransigently right-wing.
    But I hope that we shall not have to do that again.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 Oct '15 23:42
    Originally posted by normbenign
    [b]Of course I introduce ambiguity.

    Why the initial disclaimer, or hypocrisy?

    .223 bullets are used by almost all modern armed forces. There is a metric equivalent 5.45mm. They aren't different from "ordinary bullets" except lighter than the older .30 cal, like the 7.62mm enabling soldiers to carry more rounds than before.The military counter ...[text shortened]... errorists who indiscriminately kill both Israelis and Palestinians who happen to get in the way.[/b]
    Your opinion is as worthless as always being based on untruths. It is the Palestinians, despite being occupied and brutally oppressed, who have been restrained; these so-called "indiscriminate" killers haven't managed to kill any Israelis since June 29th. http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-shoot-dead-2-israelis-west-bank-israel-185150925.html;_ylt=A0LEVrdaFQ9W5UgAeKYnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--
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