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  1. Standard member vivify
    rain
    17 May '14 20:23 / 2 edits
    So businesses are supposedly not allowed to hire or not hire applicants based on religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and among others, sex.

    So what if an organization like Chippendales, which hires male exotic dancers for female audiences, refuses to hire a woman? What does the law say on this? Or ads from restaurants saying that they want a waitress?

    If someone could clear this up, I'd appreciate it.

    EDIT:

    Regarding hiring a waitress, I'm sure someone will say that they can only request "servers", which is gender neutral. This link shows a restaurant that's interested in specifically female workers:

    http://boston.poachedjobs.com/jobs/bartenders-waitresses-prep-cook-wanted/?utm_source=SimplyHired&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Simply-AllJobs
  2. 17 May '14 20:42
    Originally posted by vivify
    So businesses are supposedly not allowed to hire or not hire applicants based on religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and among others, sex.

    So what if an organization like Chippendales, which hires male exotic dancers for female audiences, refuses to hire a woman? What does the law say on this? Or ads from restaurants saying that they want a ...[text shortened]... s-waitresses-prep-cook-wanted/?utm_source=SimplyHired&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Simply-AllJobs
    I am not sure of the outcome, but there was a case in suburban Detroit where Hooters (an obviously sexist name) fired a waitress due to her "not making weight". The job requires fairly tight fitting outfits that highlight the waitresses mammary glands. At the same time, I believe a male was applying unsuccessfully for the job.

    Some jobs simply aren't gender neutral.
  3. 17 May '14 22:02
    Originally posted by vivify
    So businesses are supposedly not allowed to hire or not hire applicants based on religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and among others, sex.

    So what if an organization like Chippendales, which hires male exotic dancers for female audiences, refuses to hire a woman? What does the law say on this? Or ads from restaurants saying that they want a ...[text shortened]... s-waitresses-prep-cook-wanted/?utm_source=SimplyHired&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Simply-AllJobs
    This is a worthwhile read:

    http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=101

    "...a bureaucrat or a court can grant a BFOQ, a "Bonafide Occupational Qualification," to cover a discriminatory practice. What is and isn't a BFOQ is up to the government."

    "There's some flexibility with BFOQs in gender cases," said the spokesman. "In Texas, for instance, a court granted a BFOQ for an exclusive dress shop to hire only female sales clerks. The store testified that their clerks were required to assist customers in the changing rooms "buttoning up, fetching dresses." It's a good thing too; otherwise the store could have been bankrupted for violating civil rights laws."
  4. 17 May '14 22:08
    Originally posted by JS357
    This is a worthwhile read:

    http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=101

    "...a bureaucrat or a court can grant a BFOQ, a "Bonafide Occupational Qualification," to cover a discriminatory practice. What is and isn't a BFOQ is up to the government."

    "There's some flexibility with BFOQs in gender cases," said the spokesman. "In Texas, for instance, ...[text shortened]... good thing too; otherwise the store could have been bankrupted for violating civil rights laws."
    What is surprising near the end of the article is how many businesses are clearly violating the law, and are "ripe for lawsuits" according to the author.
  5. 17 May '14 22:34
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I am not sure of the outcome, but there was a case in suburban Detroit where Hooters (an obviously sexist name) fired a waitress due to her "not making weight". The job requires fairly tight fitting outfits that highlight the waitresses mammary glands. At the same time, I believe a male was applying unsuccessfully for the job.

    Some jobs simply aren't gender neutral.
    My nephew manages a Hooters (or he did, we don't keep in much contact. He was rising in the organization last I heard, and was well liked by his employees, normal but tending toward attractive men and women, single moms, etc.) And the chain began in my home town. A while back they tried to make "Hooters" less suggestive by creating an owl mascot.
  6. 17 May '14 23:03
    In order to reduce (high) unemployment, Northern Ireland's Industrial
    Development Board has offered significant incentives (in various ways)
    to attract foreign investment. In 1989 Daewoo Electronics (Korean) set
    up a VCR factory at Antrim, creating 500 jobs. Daewoo was promised
    considerable latitude in their operating practices as long as they guaranteed
    not to discriminate between Protestant and Catholic workers. (The Koreans
    had no historical or cultural reasons to care about Irish sectarian conflict.)
    As I recall, Daewoo hired 500 Irishwomen, both Protestants and Catholics,
    but no men. The Koreans believed that Irishwomen would be better workers
    than Irishmen--more manageable, punctual, and reliable and less likely to
    drink or get into fights. As far as I recall, the local authorities were so happy
    to have 500 new jobs that they did not complain about this discrimination.

    Daewoo was concerned about extortion and threats of violence from local
    gangs (Republican or Unionist) demanding 'protection money'. So Daewoo
    seems to have brought a considerable private security force, consisting of
    tough Koreans who had served in elite military units and reportedly been
    used to beat up protesting workers in the ROK. Reportedly, when the Korean
    security guards caught an Irishman attempting to steal from the factory,
    they beat him nearly to death before they handed him over to the police.
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    17 May '14 23:14
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In order to reduce (high) unemployment, Northern Ireland's Industrial
    Development Board has offered significant incentives (in various ways)
    to attract foreign investment. In 1989 Daewoo Electronics (Korean) set
    up a VCR factory at Antrim, creating 500 jobs. Daewoo was promised
    considerable latitude in their operating practices as long as they guaran ...[text shortened]... teal from the factory,
    they beat him nearly to death before they handed him over to the police.
    These tough Koreans better be careful or they might get sniped.
  8. 17 May '14 23:25
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In order to reduce (high) unemployment, Northern Ireland's Industrial
    Development Board has offered significant incentives (in various ways)
    to attract foreign investment. In 1989 Daewoo Electronics (Korean) set
    up a VCR factory at Antrim, creating 500 jobs. Daewoo was promised
    considerable latitude in their operating practices as long as they guaran ...[text shortened]... teal from the factory,
    they beat him nearly to death before they handed him over to the police.
    I visited Ireland regularly in that time period, performing inspections of a chemical manufacturing unit of my company. The workforce was dominated by men. It was like the US of the 60's.

    On balance, looking the other way about Daewoo's hiring women might have boosted the overall opportunities for women from a countrywide POV, being a sort of de facto affirmative action.

    Contrary to Daewoo's fears about men, the reputation of the Irish workforce was very high in our chemical divisions. Irish chemists and engineers worked for months at a time as ex-pats in other units around the world.

    Their reputation in drinking ability was just as well earned as their reputation for technical expertise and work ethic.
  9. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 May '14 00:11
    Originally posted by JS357
    This is a worthwhile read:

    http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=101

    "...a bureaucrat or a court can grant a BFOQ, a "Bonafide Occupational Qualification," to cover a discriminatory practice. What is and isn't a BFOQ is up to the government."

    "There's some flexibility with BFOQs in gender cases," said the spokesman. "In Texas, for instance, ...[text shortened]... good thing too; otherwise the store could have been bankrupted for violating civil rights laws."
    There's nothing good here. Nothing good about the law and nothing good about bureaurats granting concessions on a whim.

    Here's what is right: Any employer can stipulate the sex of any employee, and vice versa.

    This is no place for state intervention.
  10. 18 May '14 00:40
    Originally posted by vivify
    So businesses are supposedly not allowed to hire or not hire applicants based on religion, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and among others, sex.

    So what if an organization like Chippendales, which hires male exotic dancers for female audiences, refuses to hire a woman? What does the law say on this? Or ads from restaurants saying that they want a ...[text shortened]... s-waitresses-prep-cook-wanted/?utm_source=SimplyHired&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Simply-AllJobs
    simple, any woman may apply if she proves she has the pecs and the penis necessary to be a chippendale.


    there is no discrimination as long as the job description is respected, just like a skinny, one eyed, crooked teeth old man wouldn't be a victim of discrimination for not being allowed in the chippendales. he simply isn't suited for it.


    we have this discrimination law to prevent real cases of discrimination. i believe however that it must be well enough written so that a woman filing a suite against chippendales for not hiring her would be dismissed. having a well defined job description would be a good start.
  11. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 May '14 00:53 / 1 edit
    Also if you'd like to define your job offer as:

    I'd like a wedding cake chef of straight sexual orientation.

    That is your business.
  12. 18 May '14 01:00
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Also if you'd like to define your job offer as:

    I'd like a wedding cake chef of straight sexual orientation that is your business.
    no, that is not one's own business. that's as clear discrimination as it gets.

    at home, i can be gay, black, jewy, republican, satanist, play wow, woman, nra member, whatever i want. if i do my job in the work hours agreed in the work contract, the employer can't do a damn thing about it.

    the employer can't ask me those things in the job interview.
    the employer may refuse to offer me employment, but if i can prove that it was because he didn't like a certain characteristic about me that is in the list of stuff you can't discriminate on, he should pay. dearly.


    we do not tolerate this crap. period.
  13. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 May '14 01:06
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    no, that is not one's own business. that's as clear discrimination as it gets.

    at home, i can be gay, black, jewy, republican, satanist, play wow, woman, nra member, whatever i want. if i do my job in the work hours agreed in the work contract, the employer can't do a damn thing about it.

    the employer can't ask me those things in the job interview. ...[text shortened]... uff you can't discriminate on, he should pay. dearly.


    we do not tolerate this crap. period.
    Do you think there are prospective employees that refuse to take up employment because of the employers sexuality?

    Should they be made to "pay. dearly." for refusing employment.
  14. 18 May '14 05:31
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    There's nothing good here. Nothing good about the law and nothing good about bureaurats granting concessions on a whim.

    Here's what is right: Any employer can stipulate the sex of any employee, and vice versa.

    This is no place for state intervention.
    Why limit the stipulations to sex? Why can't the employer stipulate anything they want?
  15. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    18 May '14 07:16
    Originally posted by JS357
    Why limit the stipulations to sex? Why can't the employer stipulate anything they want?
    I agree.

    Hair too frizzy - no job.
    Hair not frizzy enough - no job.
    Large protruding ears - you're hired, everyone else no chance.
    Short stumpy arms - you're not working here.
    Too young, too old, shifty eyes, annoying twitch, card carrying left winger - don't even bother.

    Let employers and employees discriminate in any way they please. They do anyway, a few cases become media fodder, do gooders and nosey parkers like Z have a little frenzy, maybe an employer is forced to hire someone they don't want, how does that relationship go, how would that be working somewhere you're not wanted. How would that wedding cake taste knowing the chef had been forced to make it.

    Employers who discriminate irrationally lose out on otherwise suitable employees. Employees that discriminate for equally stupid reasons miss out on the job.