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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    01 Feb '18 22:29
    Given that about all writers here apparently 'know' the Second World War
    at the level of cartoon stereotypes, here's a question to test them:

    In 1935, Italy (led by Mussolini) invaded Ethiopia. This war was very
    popular in Italy and among Italians abroad. Even Mussolini's domestic critics
    (such as socialists) rallied around the flag and supported the war effort.
    More than a few Italians who had emigrated returned to fight in Ethiopia.
    In the USA, Italian-Americans raised money on behalf of Italy's war effort,
    which provoked some tension with African Americans.

    Hitler ordered that German arms be sent to one side in this war.
    Did Hitler send arms to the white Fascist leader Mussolini or to the
    black African Emperor Haile Selassie? (I already know the answer.)
  2. Joined
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    01 Feb '18 23:12
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Given that about all writers here apparently 'know' the Second World War
    at the level of cartoon stereotypes, here's a question to test them:

    In 1935, Italy (led by Mussolini) invaded Ethiopia. This war was very
    popular in Italy and among Italians abroad. Even Mussolini's domestic critics
    (such as socialists) rallied around the flag and supported ...[text shortened]... leader Mussolini or to the
    black African Emperor Haile Selassie? (I already know the answer.)
    Selassie.

    Follow-up question: why Selassie?
  3. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    01 Feb '18 23:24
    Very interesting tidbit. I had to google it.

    It goes to show, though, that there really wasn't ideological coherence among what we now refer to as 'Fascists.'

    It's much better thought of as a very broad "third position."

    The Falangists, the Fascists, the National Socialists, Codreanu's "Iron Guard," the Portuguese & Brazilian Integralists, etc., all represent very different manifestations of far right populism, and had they survived the century, they'd find a reason to have extensive conflict with each other.

    Liberalism is modernity; Communism is hyper-modernity; these Third Positionist/Fascist movements are "alternative modernities," and do not actually present a singular vision, just as how liberals & Communists do not present singular visions.
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    02 Feb '18 00:16
    Originally posted by @js357
    Selassie.

    Follow-up question: why Selassie?
    Because Mussolini was allied with Austria which Hitler hated.
  5. Zugzwang
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    02 Feb '18 02:282 edits
    Originally posted by @js357
    Selassie.
    Follow-up question: why Selassie?
    The enemy of my enemy is my ally. So Ethiopia became Hitler's ally as long as Italy seemed to be his enemy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War

    "After Italian objections to an Anschluss with Austria, Germany sent three aeroplanes,
    10,000 Mauser rifles and 10 million rounds of ammunition to the Ethiopians.[19]."

    "*Several Austrian Nazis*, a team of Belgian Fascists and Cuban mercenary Alejandro
    del Valle also fought for Haile Selassie."
  6. Zugzwang
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    02 Feb '18 02:29
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Because Mussolini was allied with Austria which Hitler hated.
    Hitler was Austrian. Hitler did NOT hate Austria, only the anti-Nazi government of Austria.
    Like most Austrians, Hitler tended to perceive Italy as a traditional enemy.
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    02 Feb '18 02:534 edits
    Oops confused Austro-Hungarian with Germanic-Slavic tensions my bad
  8. Zugzwang
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    02 Feb '18 03:04
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Hitler despised the Hapsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire because it was a multi ethnic entity. You are mistaken.
    AThousandYoung wrongly conflates the post-1918 Austrian states (First Austrian Republic
    and Federal State of Austria) with the Habsburg Empire.

    Within the Third Reich itself, it was well-known that Hitler was an Austrian by origin.
    On one occasion, HItler demanded to know the origins of someone whom he opposed.
    Hitler assumed that this man was a Prussian or a Berliner (whom he tended to dislike).
    The reply came: "He's an Austrian and so he's one of your countrymen, mein Fuehrer."
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    02 Feb '18 03:05
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    AThousandYoung wrongly conflates the post-1918 Austrian states (First Austrian Republic
    and Federal State of Austria) with the Habsburg Empire.

    Within the Third Reich itself, it was well-known that Hitler was an Austrian by origin.
    On one occasion, HItler demanded to know the origins of someone whom he opposed.
    Hitler assumed that this man was a P ...[text shortened]... dislike).
    The reply came: "He's an Austrian and so he's one of your countrymen, mein Fuehrer."
    You are correct. I made that mistake. Hitler's hatred of post-1918 Austria had to do with the Slavic population. He saw Austria as a Germanic-Slavic mixed state which was exactly the sort of thing he hated.
  10. Zugzwang
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    02 Feb '18 03:162 edits
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    You are correct. I made that mistake. Hitler's hatred of post-1918 Austria had to do with the Slavic population. He saw Austria as a Germanic-Slavic mixed state which was exactly the sort of thing he hated.
    Even the top Nazis could make exceptions for their favourite Slavs.
    Goebbels's mistress was a Czech actress, Lída Baarová, whom he apparently really loved.
    Reportedly, Goebbels once considered asking Hitler for permission to divorce his wife
    and marry Lida Baarova. Goebbels then would ask to be appointed as Germany's
    ambassador to Japan, far enough away from his enemies among the Nazis in Germany.

    Reportedly, Hitler had a crush on one of his secretaries, Gerda Daranowski (note her Polish name),
    a native Berlinerin whom he called 'Dara'. On one occasion, Hitler was overheard expressing
    such warm admiration of Dara as a woman that Eva Braun supposedly became jealous.
  11. Standard membershavixmir
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    02 Feb '18 04:59
    I can’t be arsed googling it, but I’ve always wondered why Bob Marley and Jimmy Cliff (okay... reaggie in general) love Selassie.

    Really strange stuff.

    But to the OP: nope. I did not know the nazis supplied him with weapons or anything else.
    I’m quite surprised, considering their backing the Italian African campaign (which some say actually lost them the war: because of the initial diversion of troops and material).
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    02 Feb '18 08:13
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    I can’t be arsed googling it, but I’ve always wondered why Bob Marley and Jimmy Cliff (okay... reaggie in general) love Selassie.

    Really strange stuff.

    But to the OP: nope. I did not know the nazis supplied him with weapons or anything else.
    I’m quite surprised, considering their backing the Italian African campaign (which some say actually lost them the war: because of the initial diversion of troops and material).
    I think Rastafarians see him as the messiah or something like that.
  13. Standard membershavixmir
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    02 Feb '18 11:06
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    I think Rastafarians see him as the messiah or something like that.
    Well yeah, but why?
  14. Joined
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    02 Feb '18 11:45
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Well yeah, but why?
    I have no idea.
  15. Zugzwang
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    02 Feb '18 20:09
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Given that about all writers here apparently 'know' the Second World War
    at the level of cartoon stereotypes, here's a question to test them:

    In 1935, Italy (led by Mussolini) invaded Ethiopia. This war was very
    popular in Italy and among Italians abroad. Even Mussolini's domestic critics
    (such as socialists) rallied around the flag and supported ...[text shortened]... leader Mussolini or to the
    black African Emperor Haile Selassie? (I already know the answer.)
    Readers (everyone else here) who believe cartoon stereotypes of history would NEVER
    believe that Hitler could have given military aid to a black African country fighting against
    a white European Fascist leader like Mussolini.

    I suspect that many readers will keep denying their ignorance of history and find it more
    comfortable to hurl insults at me for pointing out unwelcome historical facts.
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