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  1. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    11 Sep '17 21:56
    Interesting comparison of the way Cuba prepares for hurricanes, contrasted with the USA's approach.

    ...The government decided they would prioritize the lives of the Cuban people, including the most vulnerable, and built a hurricane response program around that. Imagine what the United States, a nation with more one hundred times Cuba’s wealth and resources, could do if its politicians made the same decision.

    https://jacobinmag.com/2017/08/hurricane-harvey-cuba-disaster-plan

    While 2016’s Hurricane Matthew killed forty-four people in the United States, it killed no one in Cuba, despite leaving a trail of destruction in its wake. Ditto for Hurricane Katrina, which left as many as 1,800 people dead in the US. In 2008, Hurricanes Gustav and Ike pummeled Cuba at the peak of their intensity, slaying seven. But in the US, thirty people perished, even though the storm had lost much of its strength. Hurricane Isabel killed more Americans in 2003 than six major hurricanes killed Cubans between 1996 and 2002.

    The same pattern holds true for every hurricane that’s struck the two countries. It’s no wonder then that organizations like the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies and the United Nations have repeatedly cited Cuba as a global model for risk reduction.


    ... As scenes out of Texas and other disaster-stricken states over the years have shown, ordinary Americans are more than ready to sacrifice to help their neighbors. But such energies are often expended after the fact, when it’s too late, not in advance, as in Cuba...

    ...And instead of closing hospitals and other vital services, as is often done in the US, Cuba keeps them open and secures them, to provide medical care and more to its beleaguered people. Such medical help for victims continues long after the disaster is over, a reflection of the government’s insistence that health care is a human right...
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    11 Sep '17 22:12 / 3 edits
    That's not entirely fair. Cuba's an island, i.e., entirely surrounded by water. As such, it's much more of a necessity for Cuba's government to have a plan of action for hurricanes. Yes, the U.S. has more land area near the ocean than Cuba (especially with Florida and Hawaii), but overall, Cuba's geography makes a plan of action for hurricanes much more urgent.

    The biggest difference between Cuba and (most) of the U.S., is that people can't be evacuated further inland (since it won't make much of a difference). Escaping a hurricane is not as much of an option for Cubans, especially since Cubans don't have anywhere near as much money as Americans to do so.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    11 Sep '17 22:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    That's not entirely fair. Cuba's an island, i.e., entirely surrounded by water. As such, it's much more of a necessity for Cuba's government to have a plan of action for hurricanes. Yes, the U.S. has more land area near the ocean than Cuba (especially with Florida and Hawaii), but overall, Cuba's geography makes a plan of action for hurricanes much more u ...[text shortened]... or Cubans, especially since Cubans don't have anywhere near as much money as Americans to do so.
    That's such a limp argument.

    I thought state government was a big deal in the USA and not everything depended on the federal Government.

    Florida seems pretty much surrounded by water and exposed to regular hurricanes in a way not that different to Cuba. Are you saying these hurricanes are a big surprise to the Florida state government? Goodness, seems a bit windy today!! Where'd all that water come from??

    I live on a peninsula, albeit a tiny one. I can check a map showing exactly which land will flood around my area and which land will stay above water, for different levels of flooding. It is mainly a question of colouring in around the contour lines, added to which it helps to know the local drainage systems.

    When Houston floods, the same precise mapping is possible. Everyone knew they were building houses on swampland that not only would certainly be flooded but also was needed to hold excess water and prevent flooding elsewhere. Everyone knew there would inevitably be a flood sooner or later. Same for New Orleans at al. You don't need astrology to predict this stuff.

    So where are the adult plans? Where are the necessary resources when required? Who looks out for the vulnerable and the weak? Who educates the school children or maybe even their parents, so they are not just helpless?
  4. 11 Sep '17 22:58
    The way they do things in New Orleans, they build a damn that is incapable of withstanding a cat 5 hurricane, and then sit and wait. All that tax revenue I reckon is used for other things (hee, hee). Then when one approaches the mayor refuses to evacuate, just like in Houston.

    All that can be known is that it was "W"'s fault and Castro the dictator is far superior cuz he keeps his people safe, just as safe as a society locked behind bars. You can't get any safer than jail.

    Kudos to the communist fascists.
  5. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    11 Sep '17 23:19
    Originally posted by @whodey
    The way they do things in New Orleans, they build a damn that is incapable of withstanding a cat 5 hurricane, and then sit and wait. All that tax revenue I reckon is used for other things (hee, hee). Then when one approaches the mayor refuses to evacuate, just like in Houston.

    All that can be known is that it was "W"'s fault and Castro the dictator is f ...[text shortened]... iety locked behind bars. You can't get any safer than jail.

    Kudos to the communist fascists.
    The thought is that there are things to be learned from the way others do stuff and it is pretty damned stupid to close your eyes and ignore the evidence.
  6. 11 Sep '17 23:59
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    The thought is that there are things to be learned from the way others do stuff and it is pretty damned stupid to close your eyes and ignore the evidence.
    If you want the safest and most efficient society you can create, a dictatorship wins hands down.

    If you want a free society, it's a lot more messy.
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    12 Sep '17 00:04
    Originally posted by @whodey
    If you want the safest and most efficient society you can create, a dictatorship wins hands down.

    If you want a free society, it's a lot more messy.
    If you want to learn lessons about the best way to prepare for a hurricane, I suggest looking at the way Cuba does it.

    I rather think that even in a free society as perfect and utopian as the USA [God bless her and all who sail in her] there is scope for improvement in the way you organise your social affairs.
  8. 12 Sep '17 00:07
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    If you want to learn lessons about the best way to prepare for a hurricane, I suggest looking at the way Cuba does it.

    I rather think that even in a free society as perfect and utopian as the USA [God bless her and all who sail in her] there is scope for improvement in the way you organise your social affairs.
    This has nothing to do with how Cuba dealt with the hurricane and everything to do with your love affair with left winged tyranny.

    Any moron could prepare better than the local governments in Houston and New Orleans. It is up to the voters of those places to vote people in who will. The problem is, they only vote Dim.
  9. Standard member vivify
    rain
    12 Sep '17 00:24
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    That's such a limp argument.

    I thought state government was a big deal in the USA and not everything depended on the federal Government.
    So you're comparing the federal government of Cuba to a state government? How is that not a limp argument?

    No one is saying that hurricane preparedness in the U.S. doesn't need to be greatly improved; that was quite obvious after Katrina. But it doesn't seem to make sense to compare the Cuban government's actions to that of a U.S. state---especially one that's been a dictatorship for as long as Cuba. If the dictatorship happened to demand better preparations for hurricanes, that will obviously be done much more easily in Cuba, compared to the state of Florida, who has a council filled with different types of members who must decide democratically how to allocate resources.
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    12 Sep '17 00:28
    Originally posted by @whodey
    This has nothing to do with how Cuba dealt with the hurricane and everything to do with your love affair with left winged tyranny.

    Any moron could prepare better than the local governments in Houston and New Orleans. It is up to the voters of those places to vote people in who will. The problem is, they only vote Dim.
    Yes it was of course related to my socialist values. Thank you for your interest if not for the abusive language used.

    I wonder what you mean by DIMS"? As you should expect, I see no socialists in the lists and do not "support" any of the two major neoliberal, militaristic, war mongering and racist parties in the US.

    As you would expect though, I agree entirely with your comment on the dismal quality of governance there and the responsibility of voters to get politically educated. I find it odd that you are so defensive when I criticise them since you also think they are incompetent.
  11. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    12 Sep '17 00:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    So you're comparing the federal government of Cuba to a state government? How is that not a limp argument?

    No one is saying that hurricane preparedness in the U.S. doesn't need to be greatly improved; that was quite obvious after Katrina. But it doesn't seem to make sense to compare the Cuban government's actions to that of a U.S. state---especially one ...[text shortened]... filled with different types of members who must decide democratically how to allocate resources.
    A country with 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners is not in a strong position to start up this type of abuse. When 97% of convictions take place without a defence and without a fair trial, you are not impressing anyone with this type of blather. The political prisoners in the USA just get framed with criminal charges and your country silences opposition as viciously as any dictatorship on the planet.

    The allocation of resources in American politics is not, as you know, the product of a healthy democratic process, but the corrupt outcome of competition among vested interests. The whole point of the comparison is that Cuba's approach specifically to hurricanes is based on the needs and the welfare of the people, it does engage the people very fully and has their passionate support. The fact that Cubans have major and important issues with their government does not mean they are crying out to be trapped into American style neoliberalism. The world does not divide nicely into USA = freedom and the rest of the world = tyranny. In too many ways the USA is a smelly armpit with a depressingly foul political system.

    The fact remains that it is, on the face of it, interesting to consider the successful methods adopted in Cuba and to contemplate the possibility of learning from that. This would be possible in a rational and open minded discussion without descending into ideological trench warfare. Besides, you are not on strong grounds for the latter.
  12. Standard member vivify
    rain
    12 Sep '17 02:06
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    A country with 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners is not in a strong position to start up this type of abuse. When 97% of convictions take place without a defence and without a fair trial, you are not impressing anyone with this type of blather. The political prisoners in the USA just get framed with criminal charges and your c ...[text shortened]... cending into ideological trench warfare. Besides, you are not on strong grounds for the latter.
    This doesn't follow one bit from anything I've said.

    America's political and legal system being infested with corruption at every level doesn't change the fact that the communist dictatorship of the Cuban government isn't comparable to democratic state government of Florida.

    Until people start paddling 90 miles across the ocean to escape the Floridian government, you might want to save such inane rhetoric.

    Regarding allocating resources, it's much harder to get enough of the required members of a government body to vote one specific way, than it is for a dictatorship to demand something. That's just plain common sense.

    Could America learn something from Cuba about handling hurricanes? Absolutely. But criticizing the U.S. for not being as good as Cuba in one area that also happens to be a more urgent matter for them compared to the U.S., (especially given how much easier it is for a dictator to accomplish this) as I said, isn't entirely fair.
  13. 12 Sep '17 03:10
    Originally posted by @vivify
    So you're comparing the federal government of Cuba to a state government? How is that not a limp argument?

    No one is saying that hurricane preparedness in the U.S. doesn't need to be greatly improved; that was quite obvious after Katrina. But it doesn't seem to make sense to compare the Cuban government's actions to that of a U.S. state---especially one ...[text shortened]... filled with different types of members who must decide democratically how to allocate resources.
    But I thought diversity was our strength?
  14. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    12 Sep '17 04:00
    Originally posted by @whodey
    But I thought diversity was our strength?
    All those people who have risked everything including their lives trying to get to the U.S. just didn't watch enough Micheal Moore.
  15. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    12 Sep '17 04:05
    Originally posted by @vivify
    That's not entirely fair. Cuba's an island, i.e., entirely surrounded by water. As such, it's much more of a necessity for Cuba's government to have a plan of action for hurricanes. Yes, the U.S. has more land area near the ocean than Cuba (especially with Florida and Hawaii), but overall, Cuba's geography makes a plan of action for hurricanes much more u ...[text shortened]... or Cubans, especially since Cubans don't have anywhere near as much money as Americans to do so.
    So, you're saying island lives matter more than mainland lives?
    I'm pretty sure there's a large group of people in Britain who'd disagree with that.