Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9781
    12 Sep '17 04:322 edits
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    So, you're saying island lives matter more than mainland lives?
    I'm pretty sure there's a large group of people in Britain who'd disagree with that.
    Point out where I said or even implied that.

    My post was straightforward; a country's geographic location directly impacts the level of preparedness for natural disasters common to that area.

    Japan has a far better plan of action for dealing with earthquakes than the U.S., due to having more seismic activity. Cuba tops the U.S. in hurricane preparedness mainly due to being a relatively small land mass completely surrounded by water.

    Should we try to learn from their methods? Of course. Finn just needs to consider the natural factors of their geography that lead to their more advanced preparation, before making his criticisms.
  2. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    Provocation
    Joined
    01 Sep '04
    Moves
    65589
    12 Sep '17 05:25
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Cuba tops the U.S. in hurricane preparedness mainly due to being a relatively small land mass completely surrounded by water.
    .
    The people of Guam live in what look like concrete bomb shelters. Most houses have storm shutters, their typhoon preparedness shapes their architecture.

    Guam is part of the US
  3. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9781
    12 Sep '17 05:351 edit
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    The people of Guam live in what look like concrete bomb shelters. Most houses have storm shutters, their typhoon preparedness shapes their architecture.

    Guam is part of the US
    Exactly.

    Florida isn't a tiny island in the middle of the ocean, so their preparedness for a hurricane isn't on the level of Guam. Do we mock Florida for not being as prepared as Guam? No. We mock Florida for being full of conservative tools.
  4. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    Provocation
    Joined
    01 Sep '04
    Moves
    65589
    12 Sep '17 05:46
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Exactly.

    Florida isn't a tiny island in the middle of the ocean, so their preparedness for a hurricane isn't on the level of Guam. Do we mock Florida for not being as prepared as Guam? No. We mock Florida for being full of conservative tools.
    Guamanians' don't get a say in federal elections but the Island is on average conservative.
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    12 Sep '17 09:083 edits
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Exactly.

    Florida isn't a tiny island in the middle of the ocean, so their preparedness for a hurricane isn't on the level of Guam. Do we mock Florida for not being as prepared as Guam? No. We mock Florida for being full of conservative tools.
    Florida 65,755 sq miles.
    Cuba 42,426 sq miles
    Guam 210 sq miles

    Geographically, I would suggest comparing Florida with Guam is absurd; comparing it with Cuba is reasonable.

    They are near neighbours - only 485 miles apart - and share much the same climate. Physically they also have much in common.

    Florida has an immensely long coastline (1,350 miles) and is largely low lying, at or near sea level. Much of Florida has an elevation of less than 12 feet (3.7 m), including many populated areas. Therefore, it is susceptible to rising sea levels associated with global warming. The Atlantic beaches that are vital to the state's economy are being washed out to sea due to rising sea levels caused by climate change. The Miami beach area, close to the continental shelf, is running out of accessible offshore sand reserves.

    The idea that Florida has less need to be aware of environmental risks is risible.
  6. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    12 Sep '17 10:07
    Originally posted by @whodey
    But I thought diversity was our strength?
    The lack of free travel between Cuba and the USA, and the poverty of economic opportunity in Cuba, had a lot to do with the US economic embargo and the general state of armed agression including US funded and organised attempted assassinations and coups. The authoritarian response in Cuba was undesirable indeed but frankly the US record on political prisoners, as already stated, is not good. This is not an issue where you will succeed in painting the US as good guys and Cuba as the bad guys. The best you will arrive at is to criticise both on rational criteria and cut the partisan cheerleading out. It's just not interesting.
  7. SubscriberWajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    Provocation
    Joined
    01 Sep '04
    Moves
    65589
    12 Sep '17 10:08
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Florida 65,755 sq miles.
    Cuba 42,426 sq miles
    Guam 210 sq miles

    Geographically, I would suggest comparing Florida with Guam is absurd; comparing it with Cuba is reasonable.

    They are near neighbours - only 485 miles apart - and share much the same climate. Physically they also have much in common.

    Florida has an immensely long coastline (1,350 ...[text shortened]... reserves.

    The idea that Florida has less need to be aware of environmental risks is risible.
    finnegan: "Interesting comparison of the way Cuba prepares for hurricanes, contrasted with the USA's approach."

    Before it was preparedness now the goal posts move and it's geography.

    Guam is the US and they are well prepared.
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    12 Sep '17 10:18
    Originally posted by @vivify
    This doesn't follow one bit from anything I've said.

    America's political and legal system being infested with corruption at every level doesn't change the fact that the communist dictatorship of the Cuban government isn't comparable to democratic state government of Florida.

    Until people start paddling 90 miles across the ocean to escape the Floridia ...[text shortened]... y given how much easier it is for a dictator to accomplish this) as I said, isn't entirely fair.
    I agree that the different approaches to hurricanes reflect different political and ideological structures in the two societies. In fact that is the point.

    If you read my source again you will be more aware that the key difference is that Cuba's policies are built around mass engagement of the people, which has to be voluntary. The country that behaves in an authoritarian manner is the US, not Cuba. The country neglecting its people is not Cuba, it's the USA.
  9. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    12 Sep '17 10:201 edit
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    finnegan: "Interesting comparison of the way Cuba prepares for hurricanes, contrasted with the USA's approach."
    Before it was preparedness now the goal posts move and it's geography.

    Guam is the US and they are well prepared.
    I did not move the goal posts. Vivify wanted to evade my argument by means of this distraction and I pointed out the failure of his reasoning. Your own contribution has been entirely uninformed as usual. Read the thread properly.
  10. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9781
    12 Sep '17 11:45
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Vivify wanted to evade my argument by means of this distraction and I pointed out the failure of his reasonin.
    I haven't evaded anything. Regarding a failure in reasoning, you posted:
    "a reflection of the [Cuban} government’s insistence that health care is a human right..."

    This is poor logic concerning a nation with a monstrous human rights record.

    You're being too combative and overly sensitive in this thread. Fine, you don't agree there are any real differences concerning the effect of hurricanes between Florida and Cuba. You made a valid point as to why. You just seem to be interpreting my posts as an attack on your character. Again, I concede you made a valid point regarding the geography of Florida compared to Cuba.
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    12 Sep '17 12:001 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    I haven't evaded anything. Regarding a failure in reasoning, you posted:
    "a reflection of the [Cuban} government’s insistence that health care is a human right..."

    This is poor logic concerning a nation with a monstrous human rights record.

    You're being too combative and overly sensitive in this thread. Fine, you don't agree there are any real dif ...[text shortened]... r. Again, I concede you made a valid point regarding the geography of Florida compared to Cuba.
    Oh I was not concerned about my personal character at all thanks. I did think you were leaping to the defense of the USA and attacking Cuba in a more nationalistic way than my post justified. I have no time for nationalism in any form.

    Describing Cuba's human rights record as monstrous is probably arguable but not without applying at least the same terms to that of the USA. Personally, I would say the USA has a far worse record - astronomically worse.

    However, it is interesting that when we look more closely at the way Cuba is governed, and take into account the devastating economic blockade imposed by the USA for many decades, then we do not see the seat of evil that is portrayed in the Cold War rhetoric of their enemies. At the very least we notice that there is a need to be more balanced.

    One of the lessons I want to argue for is that "natural disaster" is very much a product of the way people behave. Blaming Nature is a distraction. I don't think that has to be filtered through Cold War spectacles. But I do think that one lesson is the need for collective action and socialist policies.
  12. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    To the Left
    Joined
    25 Jun '06
    Moves
    64930
    12 Sep '17 13:401 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    This doesn't follow one bit from anything I've said.

    America's political and legal system being infested with corruption at every level doesn't change the fact that the communist dictatorship of the Cuban government isn't comparable to democratic state government of Florida.

    Until people start paddling 90 miles across the ocean to escape the Floridia ...[text shortened]... y given how much easier it is for a dictator to accomplish this) as I said, isn't entirely fair.
    Until people start paddling 90 miles across the ocean to escape the Floridian government, you might want to save such inane rhetoric.

    It seems very difficult for you to consider the positive aspects of Cuban society and I think that reflects decades of Cold War propaganda and misrepresentation.

    1. A standard anti-migrant tirade is to claim that people who claim to be refugees or seeking asylum are really only economic migrants. Why is it that when Cubans enter the USA illegally they claim to be seeking asylum and fleeing tyranny? Could it be because that is the best way to get into the USA?

    2. What was the legal way for Cubans to migrate to the USA, in the light of a USA imposed travel embargo?

    3. How much did the USA and Cubans in Florida work to encourage migrants to cross the sea in the hope of a better life - and in the hope of embarrassing Cuba and stealing its more productive citizens? What was the demand for Cuban trained doctors and nurses?

    4. Why is the economic embargo and its devastating impact on the Cuban economy not a sufficient explanation for Cubans migrating? Economic hardship and lack of opportunity is a sufficient explanation for migrating from a lot of other countries, including countless migrants crossing the Mediterranean and risking drowning to do so.

    5. Why do Americans believe what the CIA tell them and what Cuban exiles associated with its pre-Revolution elite tell them? Why is there no serious counter to Cold War propaganda even now?

    6. Plenty of US citizens leave for other countries. When I grew up in Dublin the city had a visible American community composed of middle class draft dodgers and opponents of the Vietnam War. Black artists like Nina Simone (one example - there have been lots) sought relief from American racism in Europe and Africa. The number fleeing to Canada is probably less than threatened before Trump's election but still the concept is not a new one.
  13. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9781
    12 Sep '17 14:19
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Oh I was not concerned about my personal character at all thanks. I did think you were leaping to the defense of the USA and attacking Cuba in a more nationalistic way than my post justified. I have no time for nationalism in any form.

    Describing Cuba's human rights record as monstrous is probably arguable but not without applying at least the same te ...[text shortened]... acles. But I do think that one lesson is the need for collective action and socialist policies.
    America's human rights record is worse...but not when it comes to it's own citizens. Wars started in the name of fighting terrorism or acts committed to "protect" the world from communism, have all resulted in atrocities. The difference is that Americans, unlike Cubans, aren't in fear of execution for protesting the government. Well, at least if you're white. With America, there at least exists the hope of the people changing the government; that doesn't really exist with dictators; we pretty much have to wait until the dictator dies or is forcibly removed.

    I think there's also a danger in comparing a place like Cuba to the U.S. Instead of the comparison waking people up to how bad America is with human rights violations, it could cause some Americans to think "Cuba must not be so bad after all". The daily lives of most Americans aren't so horrible that comparing another nation to it would cause empathy.

    But then again, too many Americans are willingly blind to the horrors right in front them, and don't care enough to learn about the sufferings this country has caused abroad.
  14. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9781
    12 Sep '17 14:27
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Until people start paddling 90 miles across the ocean to escape the Floridian government, you might want to save such inane rhetoric.

    It seems very difficult for you to consider the positive aspects of Cuban society and I think that reflects decades of Cold War propaganda and misrepresentation.

    1. A standard anti-migrant tirade is to ...[text shortened]... is probably less than threatened before Trump's election but still the concept is not a new one.
    Honestly, plain ignorance from Americans could sufficiently answer these questions. Whether due to apathy or media propaganda, ignorance plagues most Americans, myself included. I will never admit just how many of your posts have enlightened me about a great many things.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52866
    12 Sep '17 15:15
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    So, you're saying island lives matter more than mainland lives?
    I'm pretty sure there's a large group of people in Britain who'd disagree with that.
    But how many hurricanes have the Brits experienced? Looks like the worse thing they get is a foggy day.
Back to Top