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  1. Standard memberRemoved
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    15 Apr '17 23:04
    one of the most prosperous states in the nation

    Which is where I live, Upstate NY.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626141/How-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing-one-of-the-most-prosperous-states-in-the-nation.html

    Upstate New York is becoming Detroit with grass.

    Binghamton, New York — once a powerhouse of industry — is now approaching Detroit in many economic measures, according to the U.S. Census. In Binghamton, more than 31 percent of city residents are at or below the federal poverty level compared to 38 percent in Detroit. Average household income in Binghamton at $30,179 in 2012 barely outpaces Detroit’s $26,955. By some metrics, Binghamton is behind Detroit. Some 45 percent of Binghamton residents own their dwellings while more than 52 percent of Detroit residents are homeowners. Both “Rust Belt” cities have lost more than 2 percent of their populations.

    Binghamton is not alone. Upstate New York — that vast 50,000-square mile region north of New York City — seems to be in an economic death spiral.

    The fate of the area is a small scene in a larger story playing out across rural America. As the balance of population shifts from farms to cities, urban elites are increasingly favoring laws and regulations that benefit urban voters over those who live in small towns or out in the country. The implications are more than just economic: it's a trend that fuels the intense populism and angry politics that has shattered the post-World War II consensus and divided the nation.

    Upstate New York, the portion that lies beyond the New York metropolitan area, has become “The Land That Time Forgot,” a broad swath of depressed cities and low-profit farmlands that stretches from Newburgh and Poughkeepsie in the Hudson Valley through the old manufacturing centers of Schenectady and Troy, across the Allegheny Plateau to Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo, all the way west to Jamestown, the city with the lowest percentage of college graduates in America.

    For more than half a century, this huge region — once the nation’s breadbasket and a manufacturing capital — has been losing jobs, dollars and people. “It all began in 1959 when the interstate highway system was completed,” says Carl Schramm, professor of innovation and entrepreneurship at Syracuse University. “That was also the year commercial jets went into service and half the homes in Florida were air-conditioned.”

    Weather was certainly a contributing factor. Of the country’s 12 medium- and large-sized cities with the heaviest annual snowfall, nine are in upstate New York, with Syracuse on top of the list at 115 inches. Not for nothing is the 363-mile long corridor of the old Erie Canal called the “Snow Belt.”

    But other states — New Hampshire, Minnesota, North and South Dakota, Colorado — have similar weather and have not seen mass evacuation. The difference is that upstate New York is tethered to New York City, whose residents overwhelmingly support higher taxes, stricter regulation and bigger spending than the national averages. Those policies are blamed for upstate’s economic woes by many in the region.

    “Basically what you’ve got in New York is a state tax code and regulatory regimen written for New York City,” says Joseph Henchman, vice president for state projects at the Tax Foundation in Washington. “Legislators say, `Look, New York is a center of world commerce. Businesses have to be here. It doesn’t matter how high we tax them.’ I hear that a lot. But when you apply that same logic to upstate, the impact is devastating.”

    The exodus

    The lives of Bill and Janet Sauter, brother and sister, sum up the sad story of upstate New York. They grew up in the Long Island suburbs. He went to Clarkson College in Potsdam, N.Y., near the Canadian border, studied software and enjoyed a highly successful career in Texas’ oil industry.

    Janet went upstate too, marrying a minister and settling in rural East Chatham, 30 miles south of Albany. In 1999, she and her husband wanted to move to Texas to be closer to their daughter. But they couldn’t sell their home. Months passed without a single inquiry. For Janet, there was no escape from New York. Her neighbors had similar experiences, she said.

    Bill is now retired and living in Steamboat Springs, Colo., where he skis at every opportunity — while Janet and her husband Bob are trying to eke out a living in what has become one of the poorest regions in the country. “There just isn’t much work around here,” says Janet, who supplements her husband’s income by working all night in a home for the elderly. “I’m lucky to have this job.”

    Industry has fled upstate New York. “In 1988, Kodak employed 62,000 people in Rochester,” says Sandra Parker, president of the Rochester Business Alliance. “Today it employs 4,000. Xerox has moved most of its people out while Bausch & Lomb, which was founded in Rochester in 1858, has left entirely.”

    As a result, Rochester is now the fifth poorest city in the country, with 31 percent of the population living in poverty. Buffalo is right behind at No. 6 (30 percent).

    Syracuse was devastated when Carrier, the nation’s largest manufacturer of air conditioners, General Electric and auto-parts manufacturer Magna International shuttered their last manufacturing plants in Onondaga County. A Wall Street Journal survey of the nation’s 2,737 counties, shows that only nine other counties have suffered greater job losses per capita than Onondaga County since 2009.

    Bob and Janet Sauter were not alone in their desire to leave New York for more prosperous parts of the country. New York state has lost 350,000 people in the past three years, according to the Empire Center for New York State Policy, an Albany-based research group. This is the largest out-migration of any state.

    New York was the most populous state in the union in 1960, with 45 representatives in Congress. By 2012, New York fell to third place and its congressional delegation plummeted to 28. The 2020 Census will likely cost New York even more congressional seats. Without the hundreds of thousands of immigrants moving into New York City, the state’s depopulation would be even greater. A remarkable 36 percent of New York City is foreign born — twice the percentage in 1970.

    The cost of tax and spend

    The economic woes of the Empire State trace back to Albany, and a state government that is legendary for its ability to tax and spend. Strict election laws insulate incumbents of both parties, making the state legislature the longest-tenured in the nation. Petitions to put insurgent candidates on the ballot require tens of thousands of signatures and are regularly rebuffed by the courts on technical grounds. Ballot initiatives that have led to tax reform in other states are not permitted. Politicians are protected from voters and have built a spending machine unmatched in virtually any other state. New York, despite its shrinking population, spends more money than all but a handful of states.

    The primary example is Medicaid. New York is the only state that forces its cities and counties to help finance Medicaid. As a result, for every dollar appropriated by Albany, Washington contributes two — and New York’s local governments must kick in a fourth.

    “New York spends $53 billion to serve 5.6 million people, which is twice the national average,” finds a 2012 report from the New York State Department of Health. That is $9,800 per recipient in a state where 40 percent of the population under 65 is on Medicaid. Meanwhile, California, with double the population, spends only $47 billion while serving 11.5 million people. That is $4,100 per recipient — less than half the New York rate.

    Even so, New York’s Health Department admits that California’s Medicaid program, Medi-Cal, provides far superior service.

    Governments in New York’s hinterland groan under this unique taxing burden. “A little more than half our $23 million property tax revenues go to Medicaid,” says R.C. Woodruff, clerk to the board of supervisors in rural Chenango County. “That money goes directly to Albany. We have absolutely no control over how it’s spent.”

    The city of Buffalo tried to disincorporate itself in 2004, so it could shift its Medicaid burden onto surrounding Erie County. The state wouldn’t allow it. It’s probably just as well, say county officials. “Our entire property tax goes to supporting Medicaid,” says Erie County executive Mark Poloncarz.

    States generally have three potential sources of revenue: the income tax, the sales tax and the property tax. “Usually a state will concentrate on one and go low on the other two,” says Joseph Henchman of the Tax Foundation. “New York is in the top six states for all three.”

    The Tax Foundation rated New York dead last among the 50 states for business climate in 2013.

    Does anyone make out well in New York’s dysfunctional economy? Well, yes, Indian tribes. New York has eight officially recognized Indian reservations and for years they have prospered by selling cigarettes without paying New York’s outsized $4.35-per-pack cigarette tax (not to mention the $1.50 New York City adds).

    Enjoying an exemption from many state laws and taxes, New York tribes have built eight casinos and a string of SaveOn gas station/convenience stores that dot the western portion of the state. One SaveOn complex at the western entrance to the Thruway is the busiest gas station in New York. At the Turning Stone resort and casino, 20 miles east of Syracuse, the Oneida Indians employ 4,500 people even though there are only 1,000 members of the tribe.

    The issue of whether the tribes must pay state taxes is still not settled and probably won’t be for years to come.
    4 comments on this story

    Their success indicates the kind of energies that could be unleashed if others could get out from under New York’s tax-and-regulatory system, says Manhattan Institute scholar Fred Siegel. “There is a hug...
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    15 Apr '17 23:59
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    one of the most prosperous states in the nation

    Which is where I live, Upstate NY.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626141/How-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing-one-of-the-most-prosperous-states-in-the-nation.html

    Upstate New York is becoming Detroit with grass.

    Binghamton, New York — once a powerhouse of industry — is now approachin ...[text shortened]... rk’s tax-and-regulatory system, says Manhattan Institute scholar Fred Siegel. “There is a hug...
    Actually New York's economy is doing fine:

    In February 2017, New York State’s private sector job count increased by 12,300, or 0.2%, to 8,045,400, a new all-time record high, according to preliminary figures released today by the New York State Department of Labor. Since the end of the State’s recession in late 2009, New York has added more than one million private sector jobs. Since the beginning of Governor Andrew M. Cuomo’s administration, New York State’s economy has added 951,300 private sector jobs and experienced employment growth in 63 of the past 74 months.

    In February 2017, New York’s statewide unemployment rate decreased from 4.6% to 4.4%, its lowest level since April 2007.

    https://labor.ny.gov/stats/pressreleases/pruistat.shtm
  3. Standard memberfinnegan
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    16 Apr '17 00:072 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    one of the most prosperous states in the nation

    Which is where I live, Upstate NY.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626141/How-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing-one-of-the-most-prosperous-states-in-the-nation.html

    Upstate New York is becoming Detroit with grass.

    Binghamton, New York — once a powerhouse of industry — is now approachin ...[text shortened]... rk’s tax-and-regulatory system, says Manhattan Institute scholar Fred Siegel. “There is a hug...
    Curious arguments here. I do not claim to be well informed about the state but I have many queries. [While I typed I see a more informed response has been posted, so the OP is even more dishonest than I imagined, relying on false facts as well as spurious arguments, but my review of the OP remains worth keeping. The OP's claims may be false but it is also illogical.]

    Why would we expect Janet who married a minister to be as prosperous as Bill who enjoyed a successful career in the oil industry???? That entire anecdote is spurious and quite a joke. Of course, you say the state has lost 350,000 people and that is how the market works. The economically successful and prosperous ones get away and start up somewhere else, the less affluent are left behind to be insulted for their lack of enterprise. No surprise to see a "minister's wife" in that category.

    Why is the loss of Kodak jobs, or Xerox jobs, which clearly and famously arise from radical technological change, informative about the impact of the local tax regime?? Kodak and Xerox have not resurrected in another state or another country with lower taxes or less regulation. If they had a prospect of adapting to technological change, which one could doubt, the failure was in their strategic management and nothing to do with regulation let alone taxation. [I seem to recall that Kodak invented the digital camera and refused to follow up on that innovation, because it threatened their established business, so other took the lead and Kodak paid the price. I could be mistaken. ]

    Industry has fled upstate New York? Listen to Trump! Industry has fled the USA. Almost certainly, traditional industry has suffered far more than new technlogy industries, so a state like California will be gaining while a state like New York will be suffering, without any reference whatsoever to regulation or taxation per se. Of course, the desire to impose third world conditions on labour and to evade responsibility for social and environmental costs will militate against any developed country trying to protect its workers from exploitation and its consumers from harm. Manufacturing air conditioners? Auto parts? Sounds like New York state relied on too many traditional manufacturing industries and paid a price. Of course, the US model would expect the market to pick up the resulting mess - which is mere fantasy. Slash and burn is the capitalist way - creative destruction I think you like to call it.

    Why is high taxation imposed on cigarettes a burden for industry? Why is it especially harmful for economic activity to regulate gambling? Why is the sale of cheap tax free cigarettes, or unregulated gambling on the part of some native American tribes an indication of the economic benefits to aspire to in a low tax, low regulation regime?

    What point is being made about demographic change in this state?

    Can I assume that New York has so many people on Medicaid because of the demographics and the levels of unemployment, and presumably California has fewer people on Medicaid because it is economically buoyant? In that case, the discussion about health spending is mixed up with discussion of economic and demographic context and we are not in fact comparing like for like, in order to establish any measure of efficiency. Note that I have no great respect for the way the US organises its health services or spending, so I have no reason to imagine that New York is any less insane in this respect than California, but in broad terms I anticipate that both have comparable models to fund health services.

    This whole piece reads like a profoundly slanted and misleading piece of propaganda by right wing neoliberals.

    Ah yes - here is the Kodak digital camera story. Naff all to do with regulation or taxation and everything to do with strategic management.
    http://www.afr.com/technology/in-1975-this-kodak-employee-invented-the-digital-camera-his-bosses-made-him-hide-it-20150813-k9zo8
  4. Standard memberRemoved
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    16 Apr '17 04:29
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Curious arguments here. I do not claim to be well informed about the state but I have many queries. [While I typed I see a more informed response has been posted, so the OP is even more dishonest than I imagined, relying on false facts as well as spurious arguments, but my review of the OP remains worth keeping. The OP's claims may be false but it is als ...[text shortened]... -1975-this-kodak-employee-invented-the-digital-camera-his-bosses-made-him-hide-it-20150813-k9zo8
    I have lived in the Rochester area most of my life. Kodak was the biggest employer, followed by Xerox.
    Both are gone except for some offices. Kodak was hurt by high taxes, but I think more from overseas manufacturing with cheaper labor and less regulation.
    When I was a young kid with no training, 18 - 25, I worked in a lot of manufacturing jobs. Some I only worked for a week, some a month and if I didn't like it, I quit knowing I would find something quickly. It was easy to find work if you were willing to work.
    That has all changed since most of the manufacturing jobs are gone.
    Here we are two years after the article was written, and in spite of the bleak numbers rightly noted, it is still a great place to live. We have plenty of good drinking water, clean air, mountains, rivers, streams, trees, public parks large and small - with great facilities, beeches, canal system with public paths for walking and biking, concerts, museums, great churches, and more.
    It is still a fairly safe area to live too, as long as you stay away from NYC.
    NYC does control the state. That's where most of the welfare, and those dependent on government live. And the article is right in that politicians pander to where the votes are.
    It is disappointing, as a citizen of this state, that our own state government sucks. With proper management, this could be a more prosperous and great place in every way for all its citizenry. Ill governing has overwhelmingly hurt our cities and poor, promoting poverty.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    16 Apr '17 04:29
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    one of the most prosperous states in the nation

    Which is where I live, Upstate NY.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626141/How-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing-one-of-the-most-prosperous-states-in-the-nation.html

    Upstate New York is becoming Detroit with grass.

    Binghamton, New York — once a powerhouse of industry — is now approachin ...[text shortened]... rk’s tax-and-regulatory system, says Manhattan Institute scholar Fred Siegel. “There is a hug...
    ... and how many people there are black? I mean, as in the percent increase over prior years.

    C'mon, I know you looked at the number, you just didn't want to mention it.

    Eladar would've mentioned it.
  6. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 06:151 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Both are gone except for some offices. Kodak was hurt by high taxes, but I think more from overseas manufacturing with cheaper labor and less regulation.
    Let me point out something about basic economics. US minimum wage is somewhere around 7 dollars an hour. Around 10% of the worlds population lives on 2 dollars a day. A much larger percentage are highly skilled and / or hard working and more than willing to work for less than 7 dollars an hour. Regardless of taxes, manufacturing jobs often have labour as one of the more expensive components and so such jobs will move overseas. Now that China has many more well educated people, even non-manufacturing jobs will move if they can.

    In sum, jobs that can move, will move, and there is nothing you can do about it. Its simple economics. Americans are seriously overpaid on the world market. Americans have two choices: upskill, or take an income hit. Over time, as other nations develop, income will rise around the world, but it will be quite a while before it is all balanced out.

    edit: if Kodak didn't move its manufacturing overseas, that is a key reason why they failed.
  7. Germany
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    16 Apr '17 07:40
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I have lived in the Rochester area most of my life. Kodak was the biggest employer, followed by Xerox.
    Both are gone except for some offices. Kodak was hurt by high taxes, but I think more from overseas manufacturing with cheaper labor and less regulation.
    When I was a young kid with no training, 18 - 25, I worked in a lot of manufacturing jobs. Some ...[text shortened]... all its citizenry. Ill governing has overwhelmingly hurt our cities and poor, promoting poverty.
    I know this isn't what you want to hear, but Kodak went down (although it emerged from bankruptcy and apparently still exists in a much diminished state) because of bad business decisions, primarily refusing to adapt to the digital camera era. No big bad government to blame. Sorry.

    Although Kodak developed a digital camera in 1975, the first of its kind, the product was dropped for fear it would threaten Kodak's photographic film business.[31][32] In the 1990s, Kodak planned a decade-long journey to move to digital technology. CEO George M. C. Fisher reached out[clarification needed] to Microsoft and other new consumer merchandisers. Apple's pioneering QuickTake consumer digital cameras, introduced in 1994, had the Apple label but were produced by Kodak. The DC-20 and DC-25 launched in 1996. Overall, though, there was little implementation of the new digital strategy. Kodak's core business faced no pressure from competing technologies, and as Kodak executives could not fathom a world without traditional film there was little incentive to deviate from that course. Consumers gradually switched to the digital offering from companies such as Sony. In 2001 film sales dropped, which was attributed by Kodak to the financial shocks caused by the September 11 attacks. Executives hoped that Kodak might be able to slow the shift to digital through aggressive marketing.[33]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodak#Shift_to_digital
  8. Joined
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    16 Apr '17 08:31
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    ... and how many people there are black? I mean, as in the percent increase over prior years.

    C'mon, I know you looked at the number, you just didn't want to mention it.

    Eladar would've mentioned it.
    Says douches alter ego.
  9. Standard memberLundos
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    16 Apr '17 08:33
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    one of the most prosperous states in the nation

    Which is where I live, Upstate NY.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626141/How-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing-one-of-the-most-prosperous-states-in-the-nation.html

    Upstate New York is becoming Detroit with grass.

    Binghamton, New York — once a powerhouse of industry — is now approachin ...[text shortened]... rk’s tax-and-regulatory system, says Manhattan Institute scholar Fred Siegel. “There is a hug...
    There are so many errors in this, I don't even know where to start. Checkbaiter and the two people up-voting this once again highlights the confirmation bias among the less informed.

    @Checkbaiter: Have you ever - even once - looked into the garbage you are parroting? Is it lying if you willfully posts non-truths?
  10. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 09:13
    Originally posted by Lundos
    Checkbaiter and the two people up-voting this once again highlights the confirmation bias among the less informed.

    @Checkbaiter: Have you ever - even once - looked into the garbage you are parroting? Is it lying if you willfully posts non-truths?
    It is not confirmation bias, nor being misinformed. He is well aware of what he is doing when he posts lies. It is part of the republican culture that the truth does not matter, but instead, spread as much misinformation as possible. And it works.
    The problem is not that they don't know they are spreading lies, the problem is they think everyone is doing it and that everything else is lies. They believe that being the biggest liar wins, and sadly Trumps success seems to confirm that.

    There also seems to be a belief that the government is a bit of a joke and it doesn't really matter. If Trump starts a war with North Korea, people will be woken up very very quickly and get a really bad shock and realise that when it comes to foreign relations, it does matter.
  11. Standard memberLundos
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    16 Apr '17 09:28
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    It is not confirmation bias, nor being misinformed. He is well aware of what he is doing when he posts lies. It is part of the republican culture that the truth does not matter, but instead, spread as much misinformation as possible. And it works.
    The problem is not that they don't know they are spreading lies, the problem is they think everyone is doin ...[text shortened]... and get a really bad shock and realise that when it comes to foreign relations, it does matter.
    Well, then I guess Checkbaiter is in trouble.
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lying-sin.html

    He really should know better. We can hope he will learn, but it doesn't really seem like it, does it?
  12. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 10:142 edits
    Originally posted by Lundos
    Well, then I guess Checkbaiter is in trouble.
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-lying-sin.html
    Most fundamentalists don't actually believe that sort of thing either. They believe humans are naturally sinful and they can get 'saved' without 'works' and so they keep on sinning.

    In another thread, Checkbaiter claimed that none of Obama's classmates or girlfriends remembered him. When I pointed out that that was a ridiculous claim, he quoted one of Obama's classmates remembering him. When I pointed out the contradiction, he didn't seem at all bothered by the fact that his original statement was obviously false. It didn't surprise him in the slightest. Instead he just looked for something else nasty to say about Obama. Clearly, he knew from the very beginning that he was spreading lies. That sort of scenario plays out over and over again with particular posters, many of whom repeat the exact same lies over and over even though they are conclusively proved false each time.
  13. Standard memberRemoved
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    16 Apr '17 12:29
    Actually, left wingers are living the biggest lie of all. Almost everything you believe is based on lies which you swallow hook line and sinker. From evolution to global warming you guys live in a Matrix of sorts.
    As far as twit pointed out, It was a slight mistake about obama's classmates not knowing him. A mistake due to ignorance is not a lie. Most people from his early years had ever heard of him.
    The point being that a lot of money was spent to cover for him. Records were sealed, even false social security cards popped up elsewhere, etc. There is a lot of mystery and secrecy surrounding his early life, or perhaps the biased media just wouldn't cover it, not investigate because he was a Liberal.
    And as most people know, they protect libs and attack Conservatives.
  14. Standard memberfinnegan
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    16 Apr '17 12:532 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    I have lived in the Rochester area most of my life. Kodak was the biggest employer, followed by Xerox.
    Both are gone except for some offices. Kodak was hurt by high taxes, but I think more from overseas manufacturing with cheaper labor and less regulation.
    When I was a young kid with no training, 18 - 25, I worked in a lot of manufacturing jobs. Some ...[text shortened]... all its citizenry. Ill governing has overwhelmingly hurt our cities and poor, promoting poverty.
    You completely fail to back up your own arguments when challenged.

    The fate of Kodak was entirely attributable to its own management decisions. It is a text-book case study in many books about marketing strategy. So why do you wish to persist with this example, which gives no support whatsoever to your arguments? If you are unaware of this then you are really not informed enough to make any comment on this topic.

    Then you complain about the loss of [traditional] manufacturing. Doh. Just what do you understand about change in the marketplace?

    You try to blame everything on government as though government were omnipotent, but I wonder if you would be equally committed to the almighty powers of government if anyone offered a constructive government driven, public sector investment strategy to drive change in manufacturing industry specifically and in the economy generally? Oh no - your best offer is to establish a tax-free, regulation-free madhouse modelled on native American tribal reservations, with tax-free cigarettes and regulation-free gambling as your key examples of what might be possible.

    Actually I do not fully agrere with Twhitehead that the market will dictate the removal of all industry to low wage, low regulation economies. Productivity is the more important concern, achieved through capital investment and entirely consistent with decent wages and responsible regulation. In addition, there is a market for more labour intensive services in which automation is less relevant, and which can be funded partly through the taxed profits of productive industries as these are amplified through automation and capital investment. The thing is to have a strategy for the whole economy and one that addresses human needs.

    Turning the world into a version of an Indian reservation is not such a strategy. [Where God's grace fits into such an unprincipled and unethical proposal I leave you to explain. Not here, preferably.]
  15. Cape Town
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    16 Apr '17 13:04
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    As far as twit pointed out, It was a slight mistake about obama's classmates not knowing him. A mistake due to ignorance is not a lie. Most people from his early years had ever heard of him.
    A mistake brazenly repeated the sentence after admitting that you know it is a mistake, is a lie.

    The point being that a lot of money was spent to cover for him. Records were sealed, even false social security cards popped up elsewhere, etc. There is a lot of mystery and secrecy surrounding his early life, or perhaps the biased media just wouldn't cover it, not investigate because he was a Liberal.
    I could prove every one of those sentences was false, but you wouldn't be phased in the least, you would just say it was a 'slight mistake' and then tell another similar blatant lie.
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