Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 04 Dec '17 22:38
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-facial-recognition-white-coders-black-people-police

    "How white engineers built racist code – and why it's dangerous for black people.
    As facial recognition tools play a bigger role in fighting crime, inbuilt racial
    biases raise troubling questions about the systems that create them."

    "But many experts see the facial recognition technology used against him
    as flawed, especially against black individuals."

    "Experts such as Joy Buolamwini, a researcher at the MIT Media Lab,
    think that facial recognition software has problems recognizing black faces
    because its algorithms are usually written by white engineers who dominate
    the technology sector. These engineers build on pre-existing code libraries,
    typically written by other white engineers.

    As the coder constructs the algorithms, they focus on facial features that
    may be more visible in one race, but not another. These considerations
    can stem from previous research on facial recognition techniques and
    practices, which may have its own biases, or the engineer’s own experiences
    and understanding. The code that results is geared to focus on white faces,
    and mostly tested on white subjects.

    And even though the software is built to get smarter and more accurate
    with machine learning techniques, the training data sets it uses are often
    composed of white faces. The code “learns” by looking at more white
    people – which doesn’t help it improve with a diverse array of races."

    "According to a 2011 study by the National Institute of Standards and
    Technologies (Nist), facial recognition software is actually more accurate
    on Asian faces when it’s created by firms in Asian countries, suggesting
    that who makes the software strongly affects how it works."
  2. 04 Dec '17 22:42 / 2 edits
    I can recall a case in which an Asian American man was convicted of a major crime upon
    the testimony of only one witness (a white person), who picked him out of a line-up.
    His lawyer successfully appealed the conviction on the grounds that the line-up was racially biased.
    The accused was the only Asian in the line-up; everyone else was black or Latino.
    So the witness 'identified' the person in the line-up who appeared the 'most Asian'.
    The police argued that the line-up was fair enough because everyone in it was non-white,
    as though there were no obvious differences between the Asian and non-Asians in it.

    It's also long been known that witnesses are less reliable in making cross-racial identifications.
    That is, white people are better at identifying white people; black people at identifying black people, etc.
  3. 04 Dec '17 22:55 / 2 edits
    Sometimes I have been asked, "Can you tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese faces?"
    Not all the time. Yet I can recognize common differences enough to be able to score much
    better than random guessing if given a sample of 100 faces (half Chinese, half Japanese).
    My ability to recognize these faces comes from enough experience being around these people.

    On one occasion when I met a young woman, I was having hard time deciding if she appeared
    more Chinese or Japanese. Then she told me that her father's Chinese and her mother's Japanese.
  4. 05 Dec '17 00:12
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Sometimes I have been asked, "Can you tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese faces?"
    Not all the time. Yet I can recognize common differences enough to be able to score much
    better than random guessing if given a sample of 100 faces (half Chinese, half Japanese).
    My ability to recognize these faces comes from enough experience being around t ...[text shortened]... ore Chinese or Japanese. Then she told me that her father's Chinese and her mother's Japanese.
    Man, you are just one of the most amazing people I've ever heard of.

    Could I, like, maybe get your autograph or something?
  5. Standard member mchill
    Green Lantern
    05 Dec '17 02:43
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Man, you are just one of the most amazing people I've ever heard of.

    Could I, like, maybe get your autograph or something?
    D64 is really modest too!
  6. 05 Dec '17 02:49
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Man, you are just one of the most amazing people I've ever heard of.

    Could I, like, maybe get your autograph or something?
    There seems to be no limit to arrogant Western ethnocentricism here.

    In Western societies, many ignorant ethnocentric white people like to believe that all East Asians look exactly alike.
    In reality, it's normal for people (not necessarily Chinese or Japanese) who have spent enough
    time among Chinese and Japanese to be able to perceive common differences in appearance.
    I don't how to teach an ignorant Westerner to do it. It's done through intuition based upon experience.
    I do know that a few Westerners CAN perceive common difference in appearance between Chinese and Japanese.

    During the Second World War, the US military attempted to train some American soldiers
    into distinguishing between the Chinese (their ally) and the Japanese (their enemy).
    What should an American soldier do if he saw Chinese or Japanese soldiers approaching
    and could not identify them by their uniforms? That could be a life-or-death decision.
    I suspect that this kind of training was not very successful.

    When I watch Western films, I often can notice that an ethnic Japanese actor has been cast,
    for instance, to play a Chinese character, and sometimes the differences in appearance
    or accent can be annoying. It might be almost like (sight exaggeration) casting a swarthy
    dark-haired Spanish actor to play a pale blond Swede. Don't all white people look alike? (sarcasm)
  7. Standard member mchill
    Green Lantern
    05 Dec '17 02:52
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There seems to be no limit to arrogant Western ethnocentricism here.

    In Western societies, many ignorant ethnocentric white people like to believe that all East Asians look exactly alike.
    In reality, it's normal for people (not necessarily Chinese or Japanese) who have spent enough
    time among Chinese and Japanese to be able to perceive common differe ...[text shortened]... -haired Spanish actor to play a pale blond Swede. Don't all white people look alike? (sarcasm)
    There seems to be no limit to arrogant Western ethnocentricism here.

    In Western societies, many ignorant ethnocentric white people like to believe that all East Asians look exactly alike. In reality, it's normal for people (not necessarily Chinese or Japanese) who have spent enough time among Chinese and Japanese to be able to perceive common differences in appearance. I don't how to teach an ignorant Westerner to do it.





    And don't forget that all white American males (especially this one) are racist, sexist trolls!
  8. 05 Dec '17 03:07 / 7 edits
    Originally posted by @mchill
    D64 is really modest too!
    Ignorant ethnocentric (or racist) Westerners tend to be shocked and incredulous toward
    mundane realities that non-Westerners take for granted. These Westerners like to fantasize
    that East Asians could do no better than they at recognizing East Asian faces in general.

    Here's an article by a Westerner in Japan:
    http://jpninfo.com/12559

    "How to Distinguish Japanese People from Korean and Chinese People"

    "Before coming to Japan, I had no idea how to distinguish Japanese, Korean, and Chinese
    people from one another. Whilst studying at university in Japan as an international student,
    I had more than one experience of mistaking Chinese and Korean people for Japanese
    people and speaking Japanese to them."

    Please note that I narrowed down the scope of my test to distinguishing between Chinese and Japanese.
    If I had to distinguish among Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Vietnamese, then the test
    would be harder for me (I have less experience around some of these peoples).

    A computer can be trained to distinguish among Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese
    faces with more than 75% accuracy. That shows that some average differences exist objectively.
    It may be taken for granted that a computer has no subjective bias In this matter.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/21/the-awkward-thing-that-happened-when-scientists-asked-a-computer-to-tell-asian-faces-apart/?utm_term=.6d7fd6eb1ecd

    "Every Asian American has been asked this question. A computer gives the best answer."

    "To be Asian in America is to be quizzed, constantly, about your ethnicity. What are you?
    Where are you from? No, but where are your parents from?

    Nowadays, such questions are more awkward than ominous. But there was a time when
    this was a national obsession of sorts — when splashy magazines like Life published guides
    to help readers distinguish between the “parchment yellow” Chinese with their “finely-bridged”
    noses, and the “earthy yellow” Japanese, with their “massively boned faces.”

    Recently, computer scientists at the University of Rochester tried to teach an algorithm to
    tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese and Korean faces. They wanted to explore
    how advancements in artificial intelligence have made it easier for computers to interpret
    pictures in sophisticated ways. But, intentionally or not, their research taps into the
    uncomfortable history of how Asians have struggled to fit into American life."

    "But despite what they expected to be a difficult task, the scientists were surprised to
    discover that the computer could achieve accuracy rates of over 75 percent. This is far
    better than humans performed on Suematsu’s quiz. The computer’s advantage is that it
    could draw on a vast library of faces."

    "Psychologists call it the “cross-race” effect: We are much better at distinguishing
    members of our own race or ethnicity than members of other races or ethnicities.
    Studies suggest that with training, people can improve at recognizing the faces of people
    from different ethnic backgrounds."

    But arrogant white people like to believe that no one can be better than they at recognizing non-white faces.
    Arrogant white people like to believe that they must be the best at doing just about everything.

    "The work of Luo's lab REBUKES THE LAZY NOTION THAT ALL ASIANS LOOK THE SAME.
    If a software routine can be trained to easily recognize the differences between a Chinese
    person, a Japanese person and a Korean person, then that challenges Americans to pay
    close attention, to work harder to understand the diverse mix of people living in our nation today."

    But many, if not most, other Americans seem much more comfortable with racist sneering
    than making any sincere attempt to understand the diversity of Asian Americans.

    "Ask any Asian American. Every single one has a well-worn reply to the question:
    So where are you really from? When someone demands your ancestry at the beginning
    of a conversation — as often happens if you’re Asian — it implies that your genetic history is
    the most interesting thing about you. This gets tiresome no matter how proud you are of your heritage."

    There's no evidence that this deep kind of prejudice will change toward Asian Americans.
  9. 05 Dec '17 07:17 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Ignorant ethnocentric (or racist) Westerners tend to be shocked and incredulous toward
    mundane realities that non-Westerners take for granted. These Westerners like to fantasize
    that East Asians could do no better than they at recognizing East Asian faces in general.

    Here's an article by a Westerner in Japan:
    http://jpninfo.com/12559

    "How to Dis ...[text shortened]... ge."

    There's no evidence that this deep kind of prejudice will change toward Asian Americans.
    The computer achieved a 75% accuracy rate after being fed hundreds of thousands of pictures of Chinese, Japanese and Korean people. It is unfair to expect a human to meet the same standard. After all, who knows a hundred thousand people of any race?

    Your analogy of being able to tell Spaniards apart from Swedes isn't really apt, as you are comparing extreme Northern European with extreme Southern European. That would be like comparing Mongolians to Indonesians (obvious difference).

    It doesn't mean that white people think that all Asians look the same just because most are unable to tell whether someone is Chinese, Japanese or Korean. Trying to find consistent differences between three peoples who are from roughly the same latitude on the same continent is a very difficult task unless one has an extreme amount of practise. This is not helped by the random variation of human genetics. Could you tell from sight the difference between an Irish and and a Scot, or a Norwegian and a Swede (with accuracy?) I certainly can't.

    There is a difference between being unable to tell what country someone is from, and thinking they look exactly like everyone else from that continent.
  10. 05 Dec '17 10:20
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There seems to be no limit to arrogant Western ethnocentricism here.

    In Western societies, many ignorant ethnocentric white people like to believe that all East Asians look exactly alike.
    In reality, it's normal for people (not necessarily Chinese or Japanese) who have spent enough
    time among Chinese and Japanese to be able to perceive common differe ...[text shortened]... -haired Spanish actor to play a pale blond Swede. Don't all white people look alike? (sarcasm)
    What other amazing capabilities do you have?
  11. 05 Dec '17 10:30
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/04/racist-facial-recognition-white-coders-black-people-police

    "How white engineers built racist code – and why it's dangerous for black people.
    As facial recognition tools play a bigger role in fighting crime, inbuilt racial
    biases raise troubling questions about the systems that create them."

    "But ...[text shortened]... rms in Asian countries, suggesting
    that who makes the software strongly affects how it works."
    Other than scouring the internet (mostly the Guardian) for more material to fuel your propensity for confirmation bias...do you ever go out, meet up with friends, have a few drinks, get laid, Watch some sport...anything?
  12. 05 Dec '17 11:30
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There seems to be no limit to arrogant Western ethnocentricism here.
    Could you explain how me making fun of your narcissistic waffle is a sign of "arrogant Western ethnocentricism"?

    * Your use of the word "arrogant" here is amusingly ironic.
    * Your dislike for the narcissistic American president is equally ironic.
  13. 05 Dec '17 20:54 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    The computer achieved a 75% accuracy rate after being fed hundreds of thousands of pictures of Chinese, Japanese and Korean people. It is unfair to expect a human to meet the same standard. After all, who knows a hundred thousand people of any race?

    Your analogy of being able to tell Spaniards apart from Swedes isn't really apt, as you are comparing ex ...[text shortened]... country someone is from, and thinking they look exactly like everyone else from that continent.
    Ash apparently misunderstands what I wrote and completely misses my points.

    "It is unfair to expect a human to meet the same standard."
    --Ash

    I don't expect people--particularly white people unfamiliar with East Asians--to be as
    successful as a computer in distinguishing among East Asian faces of different ethnicities.
    The computer's ability to do so shows, however, the existence of OBJECTIVE average differences.

    "After all, who knows a hundred thousand people of any race?"
    --Ash

    'Knows' is an exaggerated standard; 'seen' is more fitting standard for facial pattern recognition.
    A person who has lives in Shanghai, for instance, may SEE many thousands of faces in one's lifetime.
    It's unnecessary to be a personal friend of these many thousands of people.

    "Your analogy of being able to tell Spaniards apart from Swedes isn't really apt"
    --Ash

    I already mentioned that it was exaggerated (for rhetorical purposes).

    "That would be like comparing Mongolians to Indonesians (obvious difference).."
    --Ash

    I suspect that some arrogant white people here would NOT find these differences 'obvious'.

    "It doesn't mean that white people think that all Asians look the same...."
    --Ash

    In fact, East Asians routinely hear many white people SAY that East Asians 'look the same'.
    It's a popular racist stereotype, which some white people disingenuously attempt to deny.

    These popular beliefs among ignorant white people in Western societies are WRONG.
    1) East Asians look exactly alike. There must be no objective average differences
    among East Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) faces of different ethnicities.
    In fact, an 'objective' computer has been trained to recognize these differences.

    2) It's impossible for East Asians (or even white people very familiar with East Asians) to
    do any better than white people unfamiliar with East Asians at recognizing East Asian faces
    because all East Asians look exactly alike. That's nonsense, as East Asians know well.
    But most white people here evidently have fundamental disdain for East Asian views and lives.

    "Could you tell from sight the difference between an Irish and and a Scot, or a Norwegian
    and a Swede (with accuracy?) I certainly can't."
    --Ash

    No, but I CAN recognize average differences between Chinese and Japanese faces
    with significantly better accuracy than random guessing (like an ignorant Westerner).
    And my ability is far from unusual among people familiar with Chinese and Japanese faces.
    (As usual, arrogant ignorant white people cannot concede that other people can do better.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Scottish_Gaelic_and_Irish

    I cannot recognize the differences among spoken Irish and Scottish Gaelic dialects.
    But I can instantly recognize the differences among some spoken Chinese dialects.
    If that's impossible for an ignorant Westerner, then surely it must be impossible for me? (sarcasm)

    By the way, when Hollywood made a film about geishas, some Japanese nationalists objected
    to the casting of ethnic Chinese actresses on the grounds that they did not look Japanese enough.

    I expect most white people here to cling to their deeply racist beliefs about East Asians regardless of the facts.
  14. 05 Dec '17 21:04 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    What other amazing capabilities do you have?
    Only an extremely arrogant ignorant white man (Great King Rat) would believe that it's 'amazing'.
    It's far from unusual for a person who's familiar enough with Chinese and Japanese faces
    to be able to distinguish between them with significantly better accuracy than random guessing.
    The racist Great KIng Rat apparently prefers to ignore what Chinese or Japanese would
    have to say about this and keeps imposing his ignorant racist stereotypes upon them.

    Racist white people like to fantasize that Chinese and Japanese must look exactly alike
    and cannot be distinguished. And racist white people like to fantasize that even someone
    who's much more familiar with Chinese and Japanese faces cannot recognize their faces
    any better than an ignorant white person who's unfamiliar with Chinese and Japanese faces.

    I also have the 'amazing capability' (sarcasm)--like Chinese children--of comprehending some
    Chinese dialect(s) instantly, without struggling like most Westerners with their tonal nuances.
    But if that's impossible for an ignorant Westerner, then surely it must be impossible for me too? (sarcasm)

    I expect most white people here to cling to their deeply racist beliefs about East Asians regardless of the facts.
  15. 05 Dec '17 21:26
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I also have the 'amazing capability' (sarcasm)--like Chinese children--of comprehending some
    Chinese dialect(s) instantly, without struggling like most Westerners with their tonal nuances.
    "Comprehending some Chinese dialects instantly".

    Check.

    But please don't stop there, Douchess. Continue to baffle us with all your amazing talents. We're all on the tip of our seats.