Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    03 Jul '18 21:48
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44703874

    I have always hated so-called "positive discrimination" so I am in favour
    of the scrapping of "affirmative action". Of course Trump's motivation will
    be diametrically opposite to mine.
  2. Standard membervivify
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    03 Jul '18 22:211 edit
    People who've been unfairly (or even brutally) discriminated against, shouldn't be given a way to even the odds?
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    03 Jul '18 23:32
    Originally posted by @vivify
    People who've been unfairly (or even brutally) discriminated against, shouldn't be given a way to even the odds?
    It's a good argument, one which I have had many times with friends and family.

    I prefer fire-prevention to fire-control.

    Equal opportunity is the way forward and while that doesn't help those
    who have been unfairly disadvantaged I believe it best in the long run.

    My other argument is that such "positive discrimination" systems invariably
    cause a backlash and just give ammunition to the Right.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    03 Jul '18 23:40
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    It's a good argument, one which I have had many times with friends and family.

    I prefer fire-prevention to fire-control.

    Equal opportunity is the way forward and while that doesn't help those
    who have been unfairly disadvantaged I believe it best in the long run.

    My other argument is that such "positive discrimination" systems invariably
    cause a backlash and just give ammunition to the Right.
    Not offending Right wingers is hardly a reason to deny a quality education to millions of black and Hispanics:

    Several states have banned affirmative action programs in the past. This happened in California in 1998, and when it did, black and Hispanic enrollment at the University of California, Berkeley fell from 24% to just 13%. Now over half of college-age Californians are black or hispanic but only 15% of Berkeley’s freshmen is black or Hispanic.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/04/affirmative-action-california-black-hispanic-students
  5. Joined
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    03 Jul '18 23:47
    Originally posted by @vivify
    People who've been unfairly (or even brutally) discriminated against, shouldn't be given a way to even the odds?
    How about fixing the inner city schools?

    I know, I know, the evil GOP is stopping you........every election year........no matter if they don't control the houses of government or states these schools are in.
  6. Zugzwang
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    03 Jul '18 23:572 edits
    Originally posted by @vivify
    People who've been unfairly (or even brutally) discriminated against, shouldn't be given a way to even the odds?
    I make an important distinction between some of affirmative action's avowed *principles* and
    its *political implementation*, which often is just patronage for politically influential groups.

    In the USA, it's been said the people who benefit most from affirmative action are
    middle-class white women, who have been far from the most oppressed historically.

    Historically speaking, Chinese have been more afflicted than Latinos by racism in the USA.
    Affirmative action benefits Latinos, not Chinese (who have much less political influence).

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/asian-american-poverty-nyc_us_58ff7f40e4b0c46f0782a5b6

    "Asian-Americans Have Highest Poverty Rate In NYC, But Stereotypes Make The Issue Invisible"

    "In fact, there are more Asian-Americans living in poverty in New York City than any other minority group.
    Their stories, however, are rarely told."

    "Disadvantaged Asian-Americans’ needs are seldom addressed, and experts say the
    model minority myth is partially to blame. Because of the frequently perpetuated stereotype
    that Asian-Americans are successful, the realities of poor Asian-Americans get ignored,
    Jo-Ann Yoo, executive director of the social services nonprofit Asian American Federation,
    told HuffPost.."

    "More than one-quarter of Asian-Americans live in poverty in New York City.
    An estimated 26.6 percent live below the city’s poverty threshold in 2014 ― an
    increase from the year before, the NYC Center for Economic Opportunity reported."

    "Perhaps most surprising is that Asian-American poverty rates remain higher than those
    of other groups despite the group’s higher levels of educational attainment, a Social
    Indicators Report from the Mayor’s Office of Operations mentioned."

    "Pew Research’s 2012 “Rise Of The Asian-Americans” piece was heavily criticized for
    failing to delve into the experiences of subgroups. The report exemplifies a larger issue
    ― aggregated data’s role in perpetuating the model minority myth.
    Research often treats Asian-Americans as monolithic and ignores the diversity of their experiences."

    "Ultimately, stereotypes don’t portray Asian-Americans accurately."

    Hardly any non-Asian American politicians seem to have any concern about the poverty or
    other disadvantages (including endemic racism) that afflict many Asian Americans.
  7. Joined
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    04 Jul '18 00:01
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I make an important distinction between some of affirmative action's avowed *principles* and
    its *political implementation*, which often is just patronage for politically influential groups.

    In the USA, it's been said the people who benefit most from affirmative action are
    middle-class white women, who have been far from the most oppressed historica ...[text shortened]... e poverty or
    other disadvantages (including endemic racism) that afflicts many Asian Americans.
    I haven't connected the dots regarding the bad blood between Dims and the Asian race.

    Ever since FDR locked up innocent Japanese Americans they seem hell bent to oppress them. Just look at Hollywood, no famous Asian actors who are not a stereotypical karate actor.

    But that is Progressivism for ya. They only look at your race and sex and then treat you accordingly.
  8. Zugzwang
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    04 Jul '18 00:221 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder to Wolfgang59
    Not offending Right wingers is hardly a reason to deny a quality education to millions of black and Hispanics:

    Several states have banned affirmative action programs in the past. This happened in California in 1998, and when it did, black and Hispanic enrollment at the University of California, Berkeley fell from 24% to just 13%. Now ov ...[text shortened]... ps://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/04/affirmative-action-california-black-hispanic-students
    The lower admission rates of black and Latino students to UC Berkeley have a strong
    correlation with their lower academic performances, compared to Asian and white students.

    Does No1Marauder prefer that academic performance be considered irrelevant in university admissions?
    Does No1Marauder prefer that admissions be politically driven, primarily based upon
    whether an applicant belongs to a politically powerful group (such as wealthy white alumni)?
    Does No1Marauder prefer that admissions be based upon demographic racial quotas?
    Does No1Marauder prefer that the now illegal practice of 'race-norming' be resumed?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race-norming
    "Race-norming, more formally called within-group score conversion and score adjustment strategy,
    is the practice of adjusting test scores to account for the race or ethnicity of the test-taker.
    In the United States, it was first implemented by the United States federal government in 1981
    with little publicity,[1] and was subsequently outlawed by the Civil Rights Act of 1991"

    No American would argue that athletic performances should be 'race-normed' or that
    racial quotas should be applied when selecting members of athletic teams.
    But many Americans have much less meritocratic beliefs about academic performances.

    I would submit that performance in mathematics tends to be assessed more objectively than
    performances in team sports, where an individual's playing time depends upon the coach's preference.
    Regardless of a teacher's prejudices, every mathematics student has an opportunity to
    take the same tests and prove one's worth. In contrast, a prejudiced coach can prevent
    a talented athlete from playing enough and having the opportunity to show what one can do.

    In 2017, the USA selected student teams to participate in International Olympiads in
    mathematics (6), physics (5), chemistry (4), biology (4), and informatics (4).
    Of these 23 students, only one's white. There were no blacks or Latinos.
    The other 22 were Asians: 17 Chinese (including two females), 4 Indians, 1 Korean.

    What obviously 'un-American' teams! If the teams had been selected according to racial quotas,
    there would be one token Asian, three blacks, four Hispanics, 14-15 whites (with perhaps
    one slot reserved for someone of 'mixed race' ). Surely, many Americans would be
    prouder of sending students whose faces "look more like most Americans', even if their
    performances would be objectively much worse.
  9. Zugzwang
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    04 Jul '18 00:27
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I haven't connected the dots regarding the bad blood between Dims and the Asian race.

    Ever since FDR locked up innocent Japanese Americans they seem hell bent to oppress them. Just look at Hollywood, no famous Asian actors who are not a stereotypical karate actor.

    But that is Progressivism for ya. They only look at your race and sex and then treat you accordingly.
    Whodey extremely dishonestly argues or implies that only the Democrats supported the
    wartime mass internment of Japanese Americans. The Republicans supported it too.

    I note, however, that when (late 1980s) it was proposed that the USA apologize to and
    pay token reparations to surviving Japanese American internees, nearly all of the
    (often vehement) political opposition came from the Republicans.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Jul '18 00:27
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I haven't connected the dots regarding the bad blood between Dims and the Asian race.

    Ever since FDR locked up innocent Japanese Americans they seem hell bent to oppress them. Just look at Hollywood, no famous Asian actors who are not a stereotypical karate actor.

    But that is Progressivism for ya. They only look at your race and sex and then treat you accordingly.
    Gee, that "bad blood" resulted in 79% of Asian-American voters pulling a lever for Clinton over Trump according to a massive survey by the Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund. https://www.npr.org/2017/04/18/524371847/trump-lost-more-of-the-asian-american-vote-than-the-national-exit-polls-showed
  11. Zugzwang
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    04 Jul '18 00:39
    1) Asian Americans have the highest poverty rate in New York City.
    2) Asian Americans are disproportionately most successful at the academic competitive
    examination that usually determines admission to the public Stuyvesant High School.

    Reportedly, some politicians want to 'fix' reality 2 (they evidently don't care about reality 1)
    by adopting racial quotas or some other measures to insure that Stuyvesant High School
    will have a much lower proportion of Asian American students.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School
    "For most of the 20th century, the student body at Stuyvesant was heavily Jewish."
    That was politically acceptable.

    "A significant influx of Asian students began in the 1970s. In the 2013 academic year,
    the student body was 72.43% Asian, 21.44% Caucasian, 1.03% African American,
    2.34% Hispanic, and 3% unknown/other."

    The academic examination is designed primarily by white people, according to white cultural norms.
    Some people like to argue that the inferior results of black and Latinos show that the
    examination must be biased against blacks and Latinos. Likewise, they could argue that
    the superior results of Asians show that the examination must be biased in favor of Asians.

    It's beyond belief that white people would design an examination that would be culturally
    biased in favor of Asians (many of whom come from non-English-speaking immigrant families)
    and against whites, blacks, and Hispanics.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Jul '18 00:44
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Whodey extremely dishonestly argues or implies that only the Democrats supported the
    wartime mass internment of Japanese Americans. The Republicans supported it too.

    I note, however, that when (late 1980s) it was proposed that the USA apologize to and
    pay token reparations to surviving Japanese American internees, nearly all of the
    (often vehement) political opposition came from the Republicans.
    Vote in the Senate 4/20/88: 44 Democrats for, 7 opposed
    25 Republicans for, 20 opposed

    https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/100-1988/s525

    Vote in the House: 180 Democrats for, 43 opposed
    63 Republicans for, 98 opposed

    https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/100-1987/h304
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Jul '18 00:462 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    1) Asian Americans have the highest poverty rate in New York City.
    2) Asian Americans are disproportionately most successful at the academic competitive
    examination that usually determines admission to the public Stuyvesant High School.

    Reportedly, some politicians want to 'fix' reality 2 (they evidently don't care about reality 1)
    by adopting racia ...[text shortened]... m come from non-English-speaking immigrant families)
    and against whites, blacks, and Hispanics.
    Something as important as a quality education shouldn't be based solely on the dubious tool of a single written test and one that has expensive test prep programs available:

    Around the same time that formal tracking programs were phased out, students coincidentally began preparing for the SHSAT like never before. Hardly anyone we interviewed who went to Stuyvesant before the late 1980s did a test-prep program; by the early 1990s, few people didn’t do one. (The expense of test prep is one of the reasons de Blasio says he wants to discard the SHSAT.)

    https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/06/new-york-high-schools-stuyvesant-brooklyn-bronx/562772/
  14. Zugzwang
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    04 Jul '18 00:57
    Few white Americans would know this because the mainstream US media gives practically
    no coverage to Asian Americans outside of its cherished narrow stereotypes.

    For many years, some Asian Americans have protested adverse discrimination--in whatever form--by
    encouraging various boycotts. Around 2000 in the wake of the Wen Ho Lee case
    (an immigrant scientist from Taiwan who was wrongly accused of being a spy for China),
    the USA had (not for the first time) had purged many Chinese Americans from defense-related work.
    At least one Asian American academic organization urged all Asian Americans to protest
    by refusing to work in US government defense labs. This boycott had a mixed response.
    Some Asian Americans approved of it, while others did not (for various reasons).
    Some Asian Americans regarded the issue as only a Chinese American one, not a more
    general Asian American one. And if these Asian Americans tended to dislike Chinese Americans
    in the first place (Asian Americans are extremely diverse and often divided), then they
    saw no reason to take any risks by sticking their necks out on behalf of Chinese Americans.

    Several years later, the US government belatedly realized--on pragmatic, not moral grounds--that it had blundered.
    The USA had found it impracticable to replace even close to all the purged Chinese American
    scientists and engineers with equally qualified whites, blacks, and Latinos. So the US
    government began a recruiting campaign aimed at Chinese American students, exhorting
    them to consider a career working in US defence labs. The US government promised that
    these Chinese Americans would face no adverse discrimination in the future, but, given
    that the US government still refused to concede that there ever had been such adverse
    discrimination, apparently few Chinese Americans bought what the US government was selling.
    The only reason why the US government would bother to recruit Chinese Americans at
    all was because they had technical skills that the US government desperately needed and
    could not find elsewhere (such as by hiring politically reliable right-wing white Americans).
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Jul '18 00:581 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The lower admission rates of black and Latino students to UC Berkeley have a strong
    correlation with their lower academic performances, compared to Asian and white students.

    Does No1Marauder prefer that academic performance be considered irrelevant in university admissions?
    Does No1Marauder prefer that admissions be politically driven, primarily base ...[text shortened]... s "look more like most Americans', even if their
    performances would be objectively much worse.
    no1Marauder supports affirmative action programs which recognize the effects that structural racism have on minority students.

    You obviously don't because the present system favors a certain minority. There are, of course, ways to limit admission at these schools to high academic achievers without the use of a single, prepped for test:

    What would replace the SHSAT? A system that would admit the top 7 percent of students at every public middle school in the city, which by the mayor’s reckoning would make the collective student body at the specialized high schools roughly 45 percent black and Latino.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/06/new-york-high-schools-stuyvesant-brooklyn-bronx/562772/
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