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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 01 Dec '09 11:32
    Can Scotland go it alone ? is Alex Salmon swimming against the tide ?
  2. 01 Dec '09 11:49
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Can Scotland go it alone ? is Alex Salmon swimming against the tide ?
    Norway, comparable in size to Scotland went it alone and now has the highest standard of living in the world! perhaps if we had recourse to our own resources, we could make a go of it, as it stands, they have been pillaged by the Angles and the Americans!
  3. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    01 Dec '09 11:52
    I think most Scots never thought they would see the day when an SNP administration held power in a Scottish Parliament; even less would have expected to see the possibility of an independence referendum in their lifetimes. On the other hand, getting the referendum actually to take place seems unlikely for the time being; the minority administration seems unlikely to be able to get the required number of votes. (For shame! I'm looking at you, Liberal Democrats!)

    Perhaps that is for the best, for the Nats anyway: there has been very little change in support for independence in recent years, with the rump of around 30-odd % remaining fairly static. They are pretty much obliged to petition for a referendum at the earliest opportunity (as they have done), but at the moment it seems unlikely they would get their preferred result.

    I should think, if and when this referendum is shot down, the SNP will play the long game (well, they have been playing that game for quite some time now...): Let's assume Westminster returns a Tory government (although more polls are pointing towards the dream scenario for political anoraks - a hung parliament!) but without a Scottish mandate (I'd expect them to improve on their sole Scottish MP, but not by much). That's mana from heaven for the SNP (1980s all over again, anyone?) We might reasonably expect the subsequent Scottish Parliament elections to return less Labour MSPs (as a result of their slump, post-defeat; and, if the further left can stop the factionalisation and split the Labour vote) and, perhaps, less Lib Dems (as they are a declining force in Scottish politics) - leading to more SNP MSPs, if not a majority (which is extremely unlikely for any party under the current arrangements).

    In a sense, then, I'm surprised the Unionist parties won't allow a referendum now: they should be confident they could win it, and that would - as the SNP accept - mean no further independence referendum in 'this generation'. Leaving it for the time being - and, I should think, delaying what will be at some point an inevitability - surely carries more risk.
  4. 01 Dec '09 11:55
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Can Scotland go it alone ? is Alex Salmon swimming against the tide ?
    Would Scotland enter EU if they were independant?
  5. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    01 Dec '09 11:59
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Would Scotland enter EU if they were independant?
    That's the SNP's stated intention. They'd like to join the Euro, but would be prepared to hold a referendum on that.

    There has been talk of Scotland/the rump of the UK having to apply for membership of the EU: that seems pretty unlikely in the event.
  6. 01 Dec '09 12:09
    Originally posted by DrKF
    That's the SNP's stated intention. They'd like to join the Euro, but would be prepared to hold a referendum on that.

    There has been talk of Scotland/the rump of the UK having to apply for membership of the EU: that seems pretty unlikely in the event.
    Okay, Scotland will be a member of EU. Then no independence.

    What about NATO? Will Scotland be a member of NATO as well?
  7. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    01 Dec '09 12:13
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Okay, Scotland will be a member of EU. Then no independence.

    What about NATO? Will Scotland be a member of NATO as well?
    The SNP have a historic hostility to NATO, although recent internal debates are opening up the possibility of an independent Scotland having some sort of relationship with the organisation.
  8. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    01 Dec '09 12:20
    Whisky, lamb, salmon and enough venison to feed the population.
  9. 01 Dec '09 12:30
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Whisky, lamb, salmon and enough venison to feed the population.
    ah yes, but almost all are in the hands of private estates, try going to the river Tay, or the Spey to catch a salmon for your family my friend, you shall be liable to prosecution, not to mention the confiscation of your equipment and your vehicle!
  10. 01 Dec '09 12:38
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Can Scotland go it alone ? is Alex Salmon swimming against the tide ?
    Let's hope so.
    I think it's about time that we tried to stand on our own two feet and stopped blaming our southerly neighbours for all our ills.
    I can see a problem whereby the SNP do such a good job of running the country with their limited powers that no-one will want to upset the apple cart. Hopefully, though, the next Tory government will want rid of us more than we want to be rid of them and will push the issue. Even though they are the unionist party I don't think they bear any particular goodwill to the Scots as we have traditionally been a Labour stronghold. Therefore, the Tories will see Scottish independence as increasing their hold on an English parliament as Labour will be losing out more than they will if Scotland gets independence.
  11. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    01 Dec '09 12:45
    Originally posted by The Snapper
    Let's hope so.
    I think it's about time that we tried to stand on our own two feet and stopped blaming our southerly neighbours for all our ills.
    I can see a problem whereby the SNP do such a good job of running the country with their limited powers that no-one will want to upset the apple cart. Hopefully, though, the next Tory government will want rid ...[text shortened]... sh parliament as Labour will be losing out more than they will if Scotland gets independence.
    I'm not sure about that - historically, at least, the Tories have been dyed-in-the-wool Unionists. I honestly don't think Thatcher would have wanted to see Scotland gain independence, and don't think the current Conservatives would either. Scotland has indeed been a Labour stronghold - at least since WWII; the polling figures before that put the lie to sentimental nationalism - ut no prior Conservative government has therefore sought to hive Scotland off, purely for electoral advantage. (I suppose I'm saying that Tory Unionism is something of a core belief, and I am not at all sure they would readily rid themselves of that.)

    That said, there is probably a gulf between the Tories and majority English opinion on this...
  12. 01 Dec '09 12:52
    Originally posted by DrKF
    The SNP have a historic hostility to NATO, although recent internal debates are opening up the possibility of an independent Scotland having some sort of relationship with the organisation.
    A New Scotland, dependant of EU and NATO. Okay, my questions are answered.
  13. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    01 Dec '09 12:54
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    A New Scotland, dependant of EU and NATO. Okay, my questions are answered.
    You're right, of course - anything less than the North Korean option is a sell-out and a fraud
  14. 01 Dec '09 13:01
    Originally posted by DrKF
    You're right, of course - anything less than the North Korean option is a sell-out and a fraud
    The sooner the inhabitants of Scotland,Wales,and Northern Ireland get off the English taxpayers' backs the better.
  15. 01 Dec '09 13:03
    Originally posted by DrKF
    You're right, of course - anything less than the North Korean option is a sell-out and a fraud
    You read my words perfectly correct.
    "Give me the name of a totally independant country, and I'll give you the name of a country suffering of famine and misery."

    There is no such thing as 'indepency' in the new global world. Scotland will for ever be dependant of others: EU (member or not), NATO, and even UK.