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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    15 Jun '09 15:59 / 2 edits
    First, I'll admit, I know very little about Iranian politics. I would not trust my own analysis of Iranian political events, let alone expect anyone else to do the same.

    That being said, if you have a few minutes, take a look at this:

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/iran-does-have-some-fishy-numbers.html

    Unless Mr. Sexton is plain making things up (which I doubt), I don't see how you could read those numbers and conclude anything but that it's likely that the election was rigged.

    It seems like what "happened" is roughly equivalent to McCain having carried Illinois and New York in 2008 with 90% of the vote.
  2. 15 Jun '09 16:02
    The election was NOT RIGGED! My HAIR'S FALLING OUT!!
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    15 Jun '09 16:04
    Originally posted by scherzo
    The election was NOT RIGGED! My HAIR'S FALLING OUT!!
    and you know this because...
  4. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    15 Jun '09 16:04
    Originally posted by scherzo
    The election was NOT RIGGED!
    Certainly that's a possibility. How can you be so certain?
  5. 15 Jun '09 16:11
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Certainly that's a possibility. How can you be so certain?
    Nothing happened in the elections to support the claim that they were rigged or unfair. If the so-called "pro-democracy" crowd would like to yell about rigged elections, they could go anywhere else in the Mideast. Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, Algeria, Oman, Qatar, Iraq. But no! They pick the democratically elected anti-Zionist leftist to lambast!
  6. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    15 Jun '09 16:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Nothing happened in the elections to support the claim that they were rigged or unfair. If the so-called "pro-democracy" crowd would like to yell about rigged elections, they could go anywhere else in the Mideast. Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, Algeria, Oman, Qatar, Iraq. But no! They pick the democratically elected anti-Zionist leftist to lambast!
    Nothing? The opposition leader claiming fraud and being in house arrest, manifestations demanding recounts... Nothing in uzlalaland.

    Now don't come back with some BS about how that's not proof that there was rigging as I never claimed that.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    15 Jun '09 16:28
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Nothing happened in the elections to support the claim that they were rigged or unfair.
    Read the article I linked to.
  8. 15 Jun '09 16:29
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Nothing? The opposition leader claiming fraud and being in house arrest, manifestations demanding recounts... Nothing in uzlalaland.

    Now don't come back with some BS about how that's not proof that there was rigging as I never claimed that.
    Well, it doesn't mean much if the opposition leader wants to claim a fraud; that's the sign of a poor loser, not undemocratic elections. Whether he's under house arrest or not is irrelevant. It doesn't change the results.
  9. 15 Jun '09 16:30
    Originally posted by sh76
    Read the article I linked to.
    He was not on-site and he connected a bunch of dots that didn't exist. The data "mysteriously disappeared" ... please.
  10. 15 Jun '09 16:32
    Originally posted by Barts
    There are some pretty good indications that the elections were fraudulent. Here's some pretty interesting numbers
    http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/13/faulty-election-data/

    and another good read
    http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/07/fatwa-issued-for-changing-the-vote-in-favor-of-ahmadinejad/

    Also, all opposition candidates have either been put under house a ...[text shortened]... t'

    Edit; but you are right, I haven't found any reports of riots outside of Teheran.


    http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/07/fatwa-issued-for-changing-the-vote-in-favor-of-ahmadinejad/

    Open Letter: Fatwa Issued for Changing the Vote in Favor of Ahmadinejad
    Read letter in Farsi

    [TEHRAN BUREAU] In an open letter, a group of employees of Iran’s Interior Ministry (which supervises the elections) warned the nation that a hard-line ayatollah, who supports President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has issued a Fatwa authorizing changing votes in the incumbent’s favor.

    They warned that the same thing happened in the elections for the 8th Majles (parliament), in March 2008, in order to change the vote in favor of the principlists (fundamentalists) allied with the president; but, fearing for their jobs, they had kept silent then.

    The authors of the letter state that a copy of the letter has been sent to the President of the Assembly of Experts (a constitutional body that selects the Supreme Leader and monitors his performance) and to former president and powerful politician, Mr. Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani; the Speaker of the Majles (the parliament) Dr. Ali Larijani; the Judiciary Chief Ayatollah Seyyed Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi; the Chair of the Committee for protecting People’s Vote, Mr. Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour (a leftist cleric and supporter of Mr. Mir Hossein Mousavi); all the candidates, as well as the office of the Supreme Leader, in order to warn all the important national figures.

    The letter states,

    After several polls taken by the government in May that indicated a rapid loss of support for the President, an ayatollah, who used to speak about political philosophy in Tehran’s public Friday prayers, held a confidential meeting with the elections’ supervisors. Quoting the Bagharah Soureh, verse 249, of the holy Quran, to justify vote fraud, he stated that,

    “If someone is elected the president and hurts the Islamic values that have been spread [by Mr. Ahmadinejad] to Lebanon, Palestine, Venezuela, and other places, it is against Islam to vote for that person. We should not vote for that person, and also warn people about that person. It is your religious duty as the supervisors of the elections to do so.”

    The ayatollah then harshly criticized the other candidates [Messrs Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mahdi Karroubi, and Mohsen Rezaaee],” and continued,

    “You should throw away those who are unqualified, both morally and lawfully. Your highest call of duty at this time is to preserve your achievement.”

    ...
  11. 15 Jun '09 16:33
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Originally posted by Barts
    There are some pretty good indications that the elections were fraudulent. Here's some pretty interesting numbers
    http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/13/faulty-election-data/

    and another good read
    http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/07/fatwa-issued-for-changing-the-vote-in-favor-of-ahmadinejad/

    Also, all opposition candidat ...[text shortened]... nd lawfully. Your highest call of duty at this time is to preserve your achievement.”

    ...
    See my other post.
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    15 Jun '09 16:35
    Originally posted by Palynka
    The opposition leader claiming fraud and being in house arrest, manifestations demanding recounts.
    I don't know about his claims of fraud but his claims of being under house arrest are undermined somewhat by the fact that he is openly addressing large crwods of people who voted for him.

    "Iran poll loser leads huge rally. Defeated Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has joined a huge rally against the result of last week's election, defying a government ban. AFP news agency said Mr Mousavi told a crowd of tens of thousands in Tehran he was ready to take part in a new poll. Mr Mousavi, who was making his first public appearance since Friday's vote, believes results were rigged in favour of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Mr Ahmadinejad has dismissed the claims and says the vote was fair. The demonstrators gathered in Tehran's Revolution Square, chanting pro-Mousavi slogans as riot police stood by. "Mousavi we support you. We will die, but retrieve our votes," they shouted, many wearing the green of Mousavi's election campaign. And Mr Mousavi eventually appeared, addressing the crowd from the roof of his car. "The vote of the people is more important than Mousavi or any other person," he told his supporters." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/8101098.stm
  13. 15 Jun '09 16:38
    Originally posted by FMF
    I don't know about his claims of fraud but his claims of being under house arrest are undermined somewhat by the fact that he is openly addressing large crwods of people who voted for him.

    "Iran poll loser leads huge rally. Defeated Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has joined a huge rally against the result of last week's election, de ...[text shortened]... he told his supporters." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/8101098.stm
    No, he's under house arrest. That's a true claim. He gave the speech from the roof of his car, if you read the article.
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    15 Jun '09 16:42
    Maybe we should have put Gore under house arrest after the 2000 election. That way, he couldn't do so much damage to the environment by jetting and driving his SUV around the World to give a slide show presentation that he could have instead posted on youtube.

    Then again, if he were under house arrest, could you imagine what his electricity bill would be then?
  15. 15 Jun '09 16:43
    Originally posted by sh76
    Maybe we should have put Gore under house arrest after the 2000 election. That way, he couldn't do so much damage to the environment by jetting and driving his SUV around the World to give a slide show presentation that he could have instead posted on youtube.

    Then again, if he were under house arrest, could you imagine what his electricity bill would be then?
    Oh, are we lambasting Al Gore now?