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Debates Forum

  1. 04 Jan '10 14:11 / 1 edit
    For full disclosure I want to share my own religious beliefs. Essentially I believe in some form of a higher power but I don't adhere to any particular religion. I believe the bible *and* the quran were written by man and they both got it wrong, so I'm pretty much neutral between Christianity and the Muslim religion.

    Back when I was recruiting we had an 09L (Arabic Interpreter) come to work for our office. He's a US Army soldier who was born in Jordan and is fluent in Arabic. And his whole family is Christian.

    He has a strong dislike of the Muslim faith as he believes it's a religion seeded on the pure hatred for "non-believers" This is all based on his experience growing up in Muslim communities, and what he was always taught going to Muslim schools.

    So I used to argue with him that *both* the bible and the quran can be interpreted in good and bad ways, and it's only extremists who preach Islam to be about war and hate. The bible; for example ; has verses that are extremely sexist. But Christians today choose to ignore those or explain them away. "Yeah, it says that but what it really means is this...."

    Then one day him and I are in a Jr. College hanging out in the library. We got on the subject again and he told me, "Hang on" and he goes and gets a quran. He then proceeds to show me verse after verse of extremely hateful and sometimes violent crap against non-believers.

    Being as objective as I could, I had to say he had a point. As I said before, the bible isn't perfect either and we did have the Christian Crusades. But most Christians argue that the CC were actually *against* the teachings of their own bible, and that the Muslim extremists are carrying out the teachings in the quran.

    And interesting film was Bill Maher's "religiousless." As most of you know he's a far left Liberal and an devout atheist. His film disputes religion in general, not just Christianity. With Christians he mostly focused on the contradictions and absurdities in the bible. With Muslims he focused entirely on the violent teachings in the quran and from notorious Muslims.

    So is Islam a religion of violence and hate? I say yes. The vast majority of the 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the wold won't take it to extremes. But unfortunately, as with any religion, there will always be many who take its teachings quite literally.
  2. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    04 Jan '10 14:15
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    He then proceeds to show me verse after verse of extremely hateful and sometimes violent crap against non-believers.
    Which verses do you have in mind?
  3. 04 Jan '10 14:21
    I would say yes, but due to the very large similarities with christianity and judaism, not more so than those religions. Fortunetely however, very few people in those three religions take the writings in their holy books literally (which is impossible due to contradictions anyway).
  4. 04 Jan '10 14:27
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Which verses do you have in mind?
    I do not know which verse by section or number, but some examples (paraphrasing).

    - You are not to visit the grave of a deceased non-believer nor feel bad for him.

    - A Muslim who converts to another religion should be killed

    - I will strike fear in hearts of non-believers thus you should strike off their heads

    These are just a few from many, many that he showed me.
  5. 04 Jan '10 14:29 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I would say yes, but due to the very large similarities with christianity and judaism, not more so than those religions. Fortunetely however, very few people in those three religions take the writings in their holy books literally (which is impossible due to contradictions anyway).
    There are striking similarities as far as the storyline goes (at least early on), but I have to say the scale and frequency of hateful and violent crap is not even close to being equal.

    Edit: I have no idea about the content of Judaism.
  6. 04 Jan '10 14:46
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    There are striking similarities as far as the storyline goes (at least early on), but I have to say the scale and frequency of hateful and violent crap is not even close to being equal.

    Edit: I have no idea about the content of Judaism.
    Really? So how do they compare? I haven't read the quran, but it would do well to surpass the hatemongering of the bible.
  7. 04 Jan '10 14:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Which verses do you have in mind?
    3:028 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers.
    4:074 Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
    4:091 If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
    4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
    5:051 Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. … He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.
    9:005 Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
    9:123 Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.

    These are but a few verses
  8. 04 Jan '10 14:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Really? So how do they compare? I haven't read the quran, but it would do well to surpass the hatemongering of the bible.
    For a time as a child I lived with a Seventh Day Adventist family (my great grandmother and great aunt). I went to a SDA school and studied the bible frequently, and I even had the ten commandments memorized.

    The quran surpasses the bible in spades when it comes to hatemongering.

    Also, the Bible talks mostly about what will happen to you if you don't believe, meaning, you must "accept Jesus as your savior" in order to be cleansed of your sins. Otherwise it's eternal damnation.

    I am unaware of anything in the bible that advocates violence toward non-Christians - simply for being non-Christians. If there is some I would love to see them in the interest of fairness.
  9. 04 Jan '10 16:06 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    For a time as a child I lived with a Seventh Day Adventist family (my great grandmother and great aunt). I went to a SDA school and studied the bible frequently, and I even had the ten commandments memorized.

    The quran surpasses the bible in spades when it comes to hatemongering.

    Also, the Bible talks mostly about what will happen to you if being non-Christians. If there is some I would love to see them in the interest of fairness.
    Jesus came right out and preached a radical form a non-violence ("turn the other cheek etc" ), and he made it clear that disciples were to "love their enemies".

    I don't know the details of Islam. Does it include anything like these teachings?
  10. 04 Jan '10 16:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    For a time as a child I lived with a Seventh Day Adventist family (my great grandmother and great aunt). I went to a SDA school and studied the bible frequently, and I even had the ten commandments memorized.

    The quran surpasses the bible in spades when it comes to hatemongering.

    Also, the Bible talks mostly about what will happen to you if being non-Christians. If there is some I would love to see them in the interest of fairness.
    Did you skip Deut 13 during your bible studies? Also the book of Joshua is full of the glorification of the genocide of people who did little wrong other than not being jews and living on the "promised land".

    Also read Matthew 5:17 onwards for Jesus' opinion on the validity of the OT laws (of course the NT also states that they don't really matter and believing in Jesus is all that matters even if you are a murdering paedophile, but let's not look for consistency in the bible).

    These Seventh Day Adventists actually infiltrated Dutch politics. Apparently some members of the Seventh Day Adventists believe that killing animals is wrong in their reading of christianity, and they set up a "Party For Animals" which fights for animal rights - they hold 2 out of 150 seats in parliament (both MPs being 7th Day Adventists).
  11. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    04 Jan '10 16:22
    Aren't most of the OT stories accepted by the other Abrahamic religions, as well?

    I've always heard that Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet. Are there any Injil texts that are accepted as such in Islam? How do they relate to the NT?
  12. 04 Jan '10 16:22
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Did you skip Deut 13 during your bible studies? Also the book of Judea is full of the glorification of the genocide of people who did little wrong other than not being jews and living on the "promised land".

    Also read Matthew 5:17 onwards for Jesus' opinion on the validity of the OT laws (of course the NT also states that they don't really matter and ...[text shortened]... rights - they hold 2 out of 150 seats in parliament (both MPs being 7th Day Adventists).
    what you are speaking of is not Christianity,and that is the comparrison we were looking for ,correct?
  13. 04 Jan '10 16:43 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    [So is Islam a religion of violence and hate? I say yes. The vast majority of the 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the wold won't take it to extremes. But unfortunately, as with any religion, there will always be many who take its teachings quite literally.[/b]
    Lets be honest for a minute here, Christians adhere to the teachings of Christ and Islam adheres to the teachings of Mohammad. In short, Mohammad is their Christ even though they claim they do not "worship" him. However, contradict anything he says or say a bad word against him and a radical Muslim will come after you with a sword as if you have just blasphemed God himself.

    Having said that, simply compare the two teachings. Christ taught that God was love and that he had sent him as a sacrifice for our sins because he loved the world. In fact, we are to love our enemies. Compare that to the Islamic God who "hates" evil doers. If Mohammad was being betrayed by Judas and Peter lopped off the ear of the soldier who came to take Christ away, do you think Mohammad would have rebuked Peter and then healed the man's ear, or would he have taken up a sword with Peter? These are the glaring differences between the two philosophies and are incompatible.

    So you be the judge. Which of the two teachings are superior? I say it is Christ's teachings, which Islam also tries to say they follow, only, they defer to Mohammad for what Christ actually did and said. in fact, what teachings of Christ do you take issue with USArmyParatrooper?
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    04 Jan '10 16:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Did you skip Deut 13 during your bible studies? Also the book of Judea is full of the glorification of the genocide of people who did little wrong other than not being jews and living on the "promised land".

    Also read Matthew 5:17 onwards for Jesus' opinion on the validity of the OT laws (of course the NT also states that they don't really matter and ...[text shortened]... rights - they hold 2 out of 150 seats in parliament (both MPs being 7th Day Adventists).
    What's the book of Judea?
  15. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    04 Jan '10 16:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    What's the book of Judea?
    He must have meant Jude.