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Debates Forum

  1. 19 Aug '17 16:20 / 4 edits
    This subject is probalby being explored through other threads which I'm not up to speed, so I apologise in advance if I'm repeating the debate.

    I, as we all do I would hope, abhore the images of white Americans marching with swastica flags. It is completely understandable to feel like punching them in their stupid hateful faces for doing so; but is violence in this circumstance acceptable?

    I've been mulling it over this week and I am still finding myself in the frame of mind where I feel it is not acceptable to respond to a vocalised hateful ideology with violence. Furthermore I am a more than a little uncomfortable with the notion that it is.

    Suppose they were not carrying swastica flags but chanting hateful words, is it then ok to punch them?
    Suppose there was only 6 of them, is it ok then?
    What if it was only one person, is it still ok to beat them up?

    I'm completely open on this, honestly. What do you think is the correct default position here?

    Thanks.
  2. Standard member shavixmironline
    Guppy poo
    19 Aug '17 16:26
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    This subject is probalby being explored through other threads which I'm not up to speed, so I apologise in advance if I'm repeating the debate.

    I, as we all do I would hope, abhore the images of white Americans marching with swastica flags. It is completely understandable to feel like punching them in their stupid hateful faces for doing so; but is ...[text shortened]... etely open on this, honestly. What do you think is the correct default position here?

    Thanks.
    I can't see it being okay to just use violence, because you disagree with a person's point of view.

    I also don't think it's alright for groups of people to march carrying nazi flags and chanting hate.

    I reckon the police should round them up and arrest them / fine them.

    If the police doesn't, society is allowing a violent doctrine to be promoted. And that always leads to violence.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    19 Aug '17 17:39
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    This subject is probalby being explored through other threads which I'm not up to speed, so I apologise in advance if I'm repeating the debate.

    I, as we all do I would hope, abhore the images of white Americans marching with swastica flags. It is completely understandable to feel like punching them in their stupid hateful faces for doing so; but is ...[text shortened]... etely open on this, honestly. What do you think is the correct default position here?

    Thanks.
    Who do you have in mind as victims here?
  4. 19 Aug '17 18:11
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    This subject is probalby being explored through other threads which I'm not up to speed, so I apologise in advance if I'm repeating the debate.

    I, as we all do I would hope, abhore the images of white Americans marching with swastica flags. It is completely understandable to feel like punching them in their stupid hateful faces for doing so; but is ...[text shortened]... etely open on this, honestly. What do you think is the correct default position here?

    Thanks.
    As the situation is described, punching them is not imo acceptable. Not only that, it will play into the Trumpian "both sides" claim.
  5. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    19 Aug '17 18:39 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @js357
    As the situation is described, punching them is not imo acceptable. Not only that, it will play into the Trumpian "both sides" claim.
    As the situation is described is the $64k question.

    Dealing in abstractions leads to confusion. In the concret situation of street politics among people like these marchers, the exchange of blows is no big deal. I often encountered comparable scenarios, albeit without heavy weapons on display, both at anti-Nazi marches and at many football matches in the Seventies and early Eighties. People are just looking for a fight sometimes and it is a relief to find that you have some on your side.

    That's why you need either to ban such marches or police them properly.

    Letting marchers carry weapons is just not responsible.
  6. 19 Aug '17 18:57
    No, it is not OK to use violence against someone because you disagree with them. Why is this worth discussing?
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    19 Aug '17 19:57
    Not just for being Nazis, no.
  8. 19 Aug '17 20:27 / 1 edit
    There's a myth that every Nazi must be stupid in every way. Oswald Teichmüller was not stupid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Teichm%C3%BCller

    ""Teichmüller was a gifted, brilliant, and seminal mathematician; he was also a dedicated Nazi."
    --Sanford Segal

    As an 18 year old student at the University of Göttingen, Oswald Teichmüller joined the NSDAP in 1931.
    His professors included Jews, with whom he apparently got along on a personal level.
    After the university had refused to dismiss all its Jewish professors (excepting those
    with seniority or who were veterans of the First World War), Oswald Teichmüller led
    a student boycott of Edmund Landau, who asked him to explain his motives.
    Oswald Teichmüller claimed that he had nothing personally against Edmund Landau:
    "I am not concerned with making difficulties for you as a Jew, but only with protecting – above
    all – German students of the second semester from being taught differential and integral calculus
    by a teacher of a race quite foreign to them. I, like everyone else, do not doubt your ability
    to instruct suitable students of whatever origin in the purely abstract aspects of mathematics."

    At age 22, Oswald Teichmüller completed his PhD in mathematics. Given his exceptional gifts,
    he could have stayed in a safe position (such as at the University of Berlin) away from combat.
    Instead, in 1943 he volunteered for front-line combat on the Ostfront and was killed in September 1943.
    Oswald Teichmüller had the courage to fight and die for what he believed in.

    Would I ignore Oswald Teichmüller's mathematical work because of his reprehensible political beliefs?
    I would not do that any more than I would ignore Richard Wagner's music because of his anti-Semitism.
  9. 19 Aug '17 21:13
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    I can't see it being okay to just use violence, because you disagree with a person's point of view.

    I also don't think it's alright for groups of people to march carrying nazi flags and chanting hate.

    I reckon the police should round them up and arrest them / fine them.

    If the police doesn't, society is allowing a violent doctrine to be promoted. And that always leads to violence.
    What about Imams calling for jihad?

    Should they be rounded up as well?
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    19 Aug '17 22:23
    Originally posted by @whodey
    What about Imams calling for jihad?

    Should they be rounded up as well?
    In the UK where hate speech is a crime, such people are in fact rounded up and imprisoned.
  11. 19 Aug '17 23:21
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Who do you have in mind as victims here?
    It's not surprising to me that you pretend to not understand a simple premise.
  12. 19 Aug '17 23:22
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    No, it is not OK to use violence against someone because you disagree with them. Why is this worth discussing?
    Thanks for being unequivocal.
  13. 19 Aug '17 23:24
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    There's a myth that every Nazi must be stupid in every way. Oswald Teichmüller was not stupid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Teichm%C3%BCller

    ""Teichmüller was a gifted, brilliant, and seminal mathematician; he was also a dedicated Nazi."
    --Sanford Segal

    As an 18 year old student at the University of Göttingen, Oswald Teichmüller joined ...[text shortened]... ld not do that any more than I would ignore Richard Wagner's music because of his anti-Semitism.
    So In your personal unreferenced opinion is it ok to punch a Nazi?
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    20 Aug '17 00:00 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    It's not surprising to me that you pretend to not understand a simple premise.
    I dislike abstract generalities. They mean nothing. I asked you to be specific.

    In decent society it is never acceptable to punch another person and democracy cannot function under conditions of violence. But that is abstract. Concrete situations call for a rational appraisal, not the application of a pious and trite formula.

    In the concrete reality of street politics, or for that matter football matches and other such events, you will encounter blokes looking for a punch up. When they meet another bloke looking for a punch up that is what happens. Trying to turn such street fights into deep philosophy is not impressive. Just find some competent police officers to keep order and stop giving permission for provocative jerks to hold disorderly marches.

    By contrast, when someone uses a car to kill people, that is murder. When the target is identified on political criteria or the attack has a political purpose, that is also reasonably labelled terrorism. This is quite different and it is facile to conflate the two, or suggest some kind of moral equivalence.

    Finally, organising armed bands of aggressive young men to carry provocative regalia and chant hate filled slogans should not be confused for the democratic exercise of constitutional rights. It is what it looks like - a provocation which should not be tolerated. Failure to maintain some public order in these situations is irresponsible on the part of whatever authorities approved the march and the police who failed to demand appropriate behaviour in a public space. Yes they have a right to march but not to march in that manner.
  15. Standard member shavixmironline
    Guppy poo
    20 Aug '17 06:57
    Originally posted by @whodey
    What about Imams calling for jihad?

    Should they be rounded up as well?
    Arrested and fined. Yes.

    A society cannot function safely if there are people motivating others to use violence. There's always a group who acts upon the indictrination.

    A more difficult example would political leaders motivating others to go to war.