Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 16:32
    I feel like this could be a question on a gameshow.

    Anyway.

    Link: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2017/07/airbnbslachtoffer_spreekt_gaat.html

    Couldn't find an isolated link to the video, so I direct you to a Dutch website. Should work without problems, I hope.

    So, is it?
  2. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 17:19
    Is there something immoral or wrong about being a racist?
  3. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 17:231 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Is there something immoral or wrong about being a racist?
    Well, erm... I guess - you doofus - if you would sooner push someone down the stairs because of their skin colour then yeah, that would be somewhat immoral.

    You didn't answer the question though :/
  4. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 17:30
    Originally posted by Great King Rat
    Well, erm... I guess - you doofus - if you would sooner push someone down the stairs because of their skin colour then yeah, that would be somewhat immoral.

    You didn't answer the question though :/
    Pushing anyone downstairs for no reason is wrong don't you think?

    Because you don't like someone is not simply a racist thing. The crime should be punished the same under all circumstances.
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
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    11 Jul '17 18:591 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Pushing anyone downstairs for no reason is wrong don't you think?

    Because you don't like someone is not simply a racist thing. The crime should be punished the same under all circumstances.
    Pushing someone downstairs is probably always wrong, unless perhaps you are acting to prevent another greater harm in some way. I think most would agree that we should not push people down stairs.

    Doing so for no reason is strange. Surely there is likely to be a reason for such an act, which is both unusual and requires a certain level of aggression?

    If the reason is that you dislike that individual then we have an explanation and yes, it would surely be wrong. There is no likely good reason if the motivation is dislike.

    If the reason is that the person is of a different skin culture or ethnicity (possibly indicated by clothing for example) then that reason is reasonably described as racism.

    So there is a distinctive quality to a racist act which is different to a random act or an act based on personal dislike The difference is in the way the victim is selected.

    Once we can identify an act as racist, then we can also collect statistics and identify patterns of acts which are racist. From such evidence we can form a view about the extent to which such acts arise, the type of attitude leading to them, and the impact they have on the relevant target communities.

    So for example, even very young black children in London often experience abuse such as spitting from passing white skinned adults, accompanied by racist verbal abuse. That has an immediate and a lasting impact on the children, shaping their beilefs and behaviours. The scale of the racist abuse, its frequency and its harmful impacts, are demonstrable and have been described in diverse ways. They are too important to ignore.

    I assume you will not defend racist abuse against children by adults - not in public anyway.

    A society which seeks to reduce and, at any rate, to respond to such patterns of racist attacks is likely to seek specific penalties and sanctions to protect victims and correct the behaviour of racist attackers. A society which fails to do this is seriously defective.
  6. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 19:07
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Pushing someone downstairs is probably always wrong, unless perhaps you are acting to prevent another greater harm in some way. I think most would agree that we should not push people down stairs.

    Doing so for no reason is strange. Surely there is likely to be a reason for such an act, which is both unusual and requires a certain level of aggressio ...[text shortened]... rect the behaviour of racist attackers. A society which fails to do this is seriously defective.
    I guess the importance of why the victim was chosen is the difference.

    My position is the reason should not matter and everyone is treated equally.

    Liberal position is the special people should get special treatment.
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
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    11 Jul '17 19:131 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I guess the importance of why the victim was chosen is the difference.

    My position is the reason should not matter and everyone is treated equally.

    Liberal position is the special people should get special treatment.
    Reason has to matter. Let's say a man shoots someone else. It matters if this is a terrorist act, an act of criminal gang violence, an act of self defence against a burglar, an accident.

    Say a policeman shoots you. It matters if you provoked it by your behaviour or just got shot because of being black.

    To say the reason does not matter when evaluating any act is absurd.

    If we identify a section of the community that is being targetted for abuse, are you saying they should not get special protection?
  8. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 19:18
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Is there something immoral or wrong about being a racist?
    Yes, it is!
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    11 Jul '17 19:30
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Is there something immoral or wrong about being a racist?
    The fact you actually asked that question says VOLUMNS about YOUR morality.
  10. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 20:04
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Yes, it is!
    For you. What right do you have to force your view on others?
  11. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 20:06
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The fact you actually asked that question says VOLUMNS about YOUR morality.
    My morality or my view on forcing morality on others who disagree.

    Your response speaks volumes on your beliefs concerning freedom of thought.
  12. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 20:07
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Reason has to matter. Let's say a man shoots someone else. It matters if this is a terrorist act, an act of criminal gang violence, an act of self defence against a burglar, an accident.

    Say a policeman shoots you. It matters if you provoked it by your behaviour or just got shot because of being black.

    To say the reason does not matter when e ...[text shortened]... munity that is being targetted for abuse, are you saying they should not get special protection?
    Self defense is one thing, gang crime or terrorism should result in a swift execution
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Jul '17 20:24
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Pushing anyone downstairs for no reason is wrong don't you think?

    Because you don't like someone is not simply a racist thing. The crime should be punished the same under all circumstances.
    Do Black Lives Matter?

    No, wait, wait, don't tell me... you're one of these mental pygmies screaming, "ALL lives matter!!", aren't you?
  14. Joined
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    11 Jul '17 22:31
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Do Black Lives Matter?

    No, wait, wait, don't tell me... you're one of these mental pygmies screaming, "ALL lives matter!!", aren't you?
    Do black lives matter more than other races? No.
  15. Zugzwang
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    11 Jul '17 22:481 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Is there something immoral or wrong about being a racist?
    Here's a view from 'the other side of the hill', as a tiny minority of experience in this forum.

    Many writers here believe--showing by their actions--there's nothing wrong with *being* a racist.
    But about all of them fiercely object to *being identified* as a racist.

    Personally, I prefer to deal with someone who's honest enough to admit one's racism
    rather than with someone who tirelessly keeps lying and denying one's racism.
    White people like to recite a script to one another of "I am not a racist, and you are not too."

    How often have I heard diverse non-white people, frustrated beyond their endurance by
    everyday racism, exclaim at last: "Now I just give up on white people!" or, less radically,
    "I need a break from white people!" ?

    I can completely understand how they feel. How much more comfortable to be away
    from white people, to no longer be bombarded by most white people's ceaseless
    microaggressions, if not also by their more overt or malicious racism!

    I knew an American university student (a good student) who, though born in the USA,
    spoke English well with a British accent. (His parents had immigrated from a British colony.)
    He had grown up largely in a black community. He told me that he welcomed friendships
    from diverse non-white people, but, after many years of trying and being disappointed,
    he had given up on finding any real understanding even from 'liberal' white Americans.
    He had given up on white people. He was very bitter about his experiences of racism.
    While he's a US citizen by birth, after graduating from an American university, he said
    that he wished to emigrate to Asia, where he hoped to avoid contact with white people.
    He had no need of white people to make him happier in his life. I wished him well.

    On a less radical note, I used to hang out around several black American women,
    notwithstanding some cultural differences between us. It rather surprised me, if not
    them too, how our friendship developed. After some months, I was invited to join their
    African American activist group, even though I don't quite look like most of the members.
    These black American women had accepted me, however, as someone (a non-American)
    who understood enough of their experiences and who sympathized with their struggles.
    I considered it an honour. I ignored the stares of some people when I sat with my friends.

    We talked of creating a 'safe space' where we could feel free to be truly ourselves and
    not have to keep wearing the masks that we presented to the dominant white culture.
    We yearned to feel comfortable in sharing our varied experiences of racism without
    having to worry about a overly defensive white person interrupting us and objecting.
    I said that some white women were very close to my heart. These white women had
    loved me, treated me almost as of their own flesh and blood, and I loved them too.
    Yet I could understand why many women of colour believe that they need a safe space,
    away from all white women, even those (not most of them) who are sincerely anti-racist.
    We would be ready to embrace many white women as our sisters, but not everywhere.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_feminism

    "Black feminism is a school of thought stating that sexism, class oppression, gender identity and racism
    are inextricably bound together. The way these concepts relate to each other is called intersectionality."

    I support feminism only within the structure of intersectionality.
    In contrast, White Feminism denies intersectionality.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feminism

    "White feminism is a form of feminism that focus on the struggles of well-off white women while failing to
    address the distinct forms of oppression faced by women of colour and women lacking other privileges."

    To White Feminists (who apparently enjoy the support of racist white men here too),
    I would remind them of what Desmond Tutu said in opposing apartheid in South Africa:
    "We don't want our chains made more comfortable. We want them removed."
    --Desmond Tutu

    White Feminism promises to make non-white women's chains softer and more comfortable.
    White Feminists may promise to be kinder masters than sexist white men over non-white women
    But diverse women of colour have a right to expect much more, and we will fight hard for it.
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