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  1. 11 Apr '12 09:45
    People have said that Israel's interests and USA interests are not always the same. Some say the USA is a stooge of Israel and some say Israel is just a useful tool of the USA. Which is it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJmj_9HXqJw

    Why does the USA keep sending billions of dollars to Israel every year? What does the USA get in return?
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    11 Apr '12 11:56
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    People have said that Israel's interests and USA interests are not always the same. Some say the USA is a stooge of Israel and some say Israel is just a useful tool of the USA. Which is it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJmj_9HXqJw

    Why does the USA keep sending billions of dollars to Israel every year? What does the USA get in return?
    Neither is a stooge or tool of the other. They're both sovereign nations that are allies.

    The USA gets some stability in an ally in the Middle East for an investment that amounts to significantly less than 1/10 of one percent of the annual budget.
  3. 11 Apr '12 12:39
    Originally posted by sh76
    Neither is a stooge or tool of the other. They're both sovereign nations that are allies.

    The USA gets some stability in an ally in the Middle East for an investment that amounts to significantly less than 1/10 of one percent of the annual budget.
    I agree that neither is a stooge, they both get strategically important pay offs from the partnership. Israel gets the most powerful nation on the planet to secure its existence and the U.S gets a foothold in an unstable but important region, the instability of which suits both parties; and a cynic might say that instability is caused in part by the aforementioned partnership.

    There is reportedly a powerful pro Israel lobby but I do not believe it could sway the U.S to follow a path that was detrimental it's long term strategy.
  4. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    11 Apr '12 13:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    I agree that neither is a stooge, they both get strategically important pay offs from the partnership. Israel gets the most powerful nation on the planet to secure its existence and the U.S gets a foothold in an unstable but important region, the instability of which suits both parties; and a cynic might say that instability is caused in part by the aforeme ...[text shortened]... ot believe it could sway the U.S to follow a path that was detrimental it's long term strategy.
    Sounds like a win-win situation and a nice symbiotic relationship. So the implication of opening poster that the US gets nothing in return means that he probably needs to read and understand more of world politics before opening his mouth.
  5. 11 Apr '12 14:57
    Originally posted by sh76
    Neither is a stooge or tool of the other. They're both sovereign nations that are allies.

    The USA gets some stability in an ally in the Middle East for an investment that amounts to significantly less than 1/10 of one percent of the annual budget.
    Stability????
    That is laughable!!!!

    Israel causes more instability in the middle east than any other nation. American support of Israel is also one of the leading causes of terrorism against the USA.

    You clearly have your head in the sand. Pull it out and clean that sand out of your eyes and ears. I don't fault you for being Jewish, but I think you are very biased in your defense of Zionism because of it. You are defending the indefensible.
  6. 11 Apr '12 15:14
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Sounds like a win-win situation and a nice symbiotic relationship. So the implication of opening poster that the US gets nothing in return means that he probably needs to read and understand more of world politics before opening his mouth.
    I understand world politics just fine. Win win? You must be insane.

    Israel has to be surrounded by hostile people because the Palestinians resent their land having been stolen and having to endure oppression and being denied a Palestinian state. Israel was created by the British Empire, not some benevolent entity.

    Almost all terrorists that are asked why they attacked the USA cite my government's unconditional support of Israel as one of the reasons. Most Americans have to pay for security from terrorism in the form of taxes and they get nothing from it but another bill to pay.

    I'm sure somebody is getting something for this policy that is bad for most Americans, it is not the common people though.

    My guess is that you are Jewish like sh76. Am I right?
  7. 11 Apr '12 15:18
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    a cynic might say that instability is caused in part by the aforementioned partnership.
    One does not have to be a cynic to see the obvious.

    Are you Jewish too?
  8. 11 Apr '12 15:39
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    One does not have to be a cynic to see the obvious.

    Are you Jewish too?
    Calm down your in danger of sounding anti Semitic, I am not going to answer the question because it is irrelevant, are you a Gentile? and is that why your taking such a strong stance. My use of the word cynic was meant to imply that whether you agree with the analysis or not it could be interpreted that way.
  9. 11 Apr '12 15:40
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    I agree that neither is a stooge, they both get strategically important pay offs from the partnership. Israel gets the most powerful nation on the planet to secure its existence and the U.S gets a foothold in an unstable but important region, the instability of which suits both parties; and a cynic might say that instability is caused in part by the aforeme ...[text shortened]... ot believe it could sway the U.S to follow a path that was detrimental it's long term strategy.
    There is reportedly a powerful pro Israel lobby but I do not believe it could sway the U.S to follow a path that was detrimental it's long term strategy.


    The U.S. can be assumed to follow a path that it perceives to be beneficial to its long term strategy, but it can be mistaken. Also, the strategy that is followed is the result, one might say the vector sum, of forces that are not always dedicated primarily to the long term benefit of the entity we call the "U.S."
  10. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    11 Apr '12 15:50
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    I understand world politics just fine. Win win? You must be insane.

    Israel has to be surrounded by hostile people because the Palestinians resent their land having been stolen and having to endure oppression and being denied a Palestinian state. Israel was created by the British Empire, not some benevolent entity.

    Almost all terrorists that are as ...[text shortened]... it is not the common people though.

    My guess is that you are Jewish like sh76. Am I right?
    Israel is supported unconditionally because we are a nation full of Bible-thumpers who still think that Israel is "God's chosen people". Aside from that feeling of religious satisfaction, we get the constant headache of trying to keep them from preemptively striking Iran, trying to persuade them not to violate their agreements to build settlements in certain places, etc. etc. Great investment on our part.
  11. 11 Apr '12 15:51
    Originally posted by JS357
    There is reportedly a powerful pro Israel lobby but I do not believe it could sway the U.S to follow a path that was detrimental it's long term strategy.


    The U.S. can be assumed to follow a path that it perceives to be beneficial to its long term strategy, but it can be mistaken. Also, the strategy that is followed is the result, one m ...[text shortened]... are not always dedicated primarily to the long term benefit of the entity we call the "U.S."
    Point taken.

    There is reportedly a powerful pro Israel lobby but I do not believe it could sway the U.S to 'Knowingly' follow a path that was detrimental it's long term strategy.

    I was trying to conclude that the pro Israel lobby was not strong enough to bully the U.S.

    What say you? A poster that might produce more light than heat is always handy in this debate.
  12. 11 Apr '12 16:04
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    Calm down your in danger of sounding anti Semitic, I am not going to answer the question because it is irrelevant, are you a Gentile? and is that why your taking such a strong stance. My use of the word cynic was meant to imply that whether you agree with the analysis or not it could be interpreted that way.
    I am not anti Semitic. However, I am trying to find out if there is pro Israel bias because of race or religion. I am very curious about this.

    I am from mostly Scottish ancestry, but you won't see me defending the Rockefellers. The tendency to defend peoples of your ancestry is very weird to me. I have a hard time understanding it. I think it is very irrational and foolish to be perfectly frank.

    I know for a fact that not all Jews support Zionism. I don't know the percentage though. I havn't seen any polls to reflect that.
  13. 11 Apr '12 16:29
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    I am not anti Semitic. However, I am trying to find out if there is pro Israel bias because of race or religion. I am very curious about this.

    I am from mostly Scottish ancestry, but you won't see me defending the Rockefellers. The tendency to defend peoples of your ancestry is very weird to me. I have a hard time understanding it. I think it is very ...[text shortened]... support Zionism. I don't know the percentage though. I havn't seen any polls to reflect that.
    Well seeing as you have shared I am mainly of English,Scottish,Irish and Romany ancestry (and that's just going back as far as my grandparents) and call myself British with no small amount of pride.

    As you point out you can be Jewish and still very anti Zionist and pro Palestinian homeland rights. However it does not seem unreasonable to me that any person of Jewish ancestry would have the survival of Israel as a must have when addressing the middle east question. It does not make them any more a Zionist than me or you, what is required is a recognition that both parties in the dispute have right to a homeland.

    Finally do not assume that everyone who is for Israeli's and against the Palestinians is pro Jewish many of them are simply anti Muslim.
  14. 11 Apr '12 16:36
    Israel causes more instability in the middle east than any other nation. American support of Israel is also one of the leading causes of terrorism against the USA.
    Instability and terrorism is caused by fundimental Arab terrorists.
    If the Arab world were not so extreme and violent, there would be no need to support Israel.

    If it were not clear beforehand, after 9/11, it should be clear that if the US needs to choose sides and allies in the middle east, that it certainly should not view the Arab world as an ally.
  15. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    11 Apr '12 17:02
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Instability and terrorism is caused by fundimental Arab terrorists.
    If the Arab world were not so extreme and violent, there would be no need to support Israel.

    If it were not clear beforehand, after 9/11, it should be clear that if the US needs to choose sides and allies in the middle east, that it certainly should not view the Arab world as an ally.
    "terrorism is caused by...terrorists." Stunning insight there.

    Forgive me for not taking your post seriously.