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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 13 Jul '14 15:25
    While the teenagers that were murdered on both sides are tragic, why does Israel feel justified to invade Gaza which will increase the death toll even more than it has already by the recent bombings?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/13/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0FI04420140713

    Is Israel using the 3 teenager's deaths as an excuse to expand it's territory?
  2. 13 Jul '14 15:35
    They aren't looking to accomplish anything and won't - they just don't want to look weak in the view of the voters.
  3. 13 Jul '14 15:50
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    They aren't looking to accomplish anything and won't - they just don't want to look weak in the view of the voters.
    Teenagers have died on both sides. Maybe both sides don't want to appear weak.

    Should we count the teenager deaths on both sides? How do you think it would add up?
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    13 Jul '14 16:19
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    Teenagers have died on both sides. Maybe both sides don't want to appear weak.

    Should we count the teenager deaths on both sides? How do you think it would add up?
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    [I picked out this site by chance and do not know it - just wanted some numbers and they seem in line with my memory of other sources.]

    From September 29, 2000 to the present, apparently 131 Israeli teenagers, compared with 1,540 Palestinian teenagers.
    1,110 Israelis and at least 6,961 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
    During Fiscal Year 2013, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.5 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians.

    0 Israelis are possibly being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 6,000 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and at least 28,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. Israel currently has 262 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land.
  5. Standard member redbadger
    Suzzie says Badger
    13 Jul '14 16:40
    Originally posted by finnegan
    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    [I picked out this site by chance and do not know it - just wanted some numbers and they seem in line with my memory of other sources.]

    From September 29, 2000 to the present, apparently 131 Israeli teenagers, compared with 1,540 Palestinian teenagers.
    1,110 Israelis and at least 6,961 Palestinians have been killed s ...[text shortened]... currently has 262 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land.
    in the end it boils down to the UK giving land away that didn't belong to them.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    13 Jul '14 16:55
    Originally posted by redbadger
    in the end it boils down to the UK giving land away that didn't belong to them.
    There is a strong suggestion that it was the Americans.

    This does not downplay Britain's contribution but it can also be overplayed: the Balfour Declaration was a part of the politics of WW1 of course and not really very sincere even on the day it was issued, but after all, the British did try to sustain some order there and to restrain excessive levels of Jewish immigration, despite the perfectly understandable emotive circumstances at the end of WW2, until they were driven out by Zionist terrorism.

    The Zionist project predated WW2 and the terrible Holocaust, and there was a strong element of Jewish participation in the psudo science behind German racism before it was turned to their terrible disadvantage, as documented for example in The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland by Shlomo Sand. This is important to understand fully because of the bizarre reality that the Jewish state is racist in a way that one would have thought unimaginable given the history of the Jews. How does any anti racist deal with Zionism while avoiding the resulting traps? Not easy but we have a duty to try.

    One account of the American role is in a book by a pretty good historian, Alison Weir, and the Goodreads review follows:
    Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the United States Was Used to Create Israel by Alison Weir (Goodreads Author)

    "Prodigiously documented... Alison Weir must be highly commended for throwing such a brilliantly hard light on the relationship between the United States and Israel. I hope this marvelous book gets all the attention it deserves." - Ambassador Andrew Killgore

    Soon after WWII, US statesman Dean Acheson warned that creating Israel on land already inhabited by Palestinians would "imperil" both American and all Western interests in the region. Despite warnings such as this one, President Truman supported establishing a Jewish state on land primarily inhabited by Muslims and Christians. Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts. As this work demonstrates, these politicians were bombarded by a massive pro-Israel lobbying effort that ranged from well-funded and very public Zionist organizations to an "elitist secret society" whose members included Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. AGAINST OUR BETTER JUDGMENT brings together meticulously sourced evidence to illuminate a reality that differs starkly from the prevailing narrative. It provides a clear view of the history that is key to understanding one of the most critically important political issues of our day.
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20919295-against-our-better-judgment?from_search=true
    (What a pity Amazon now own Goodreads!)
  7. 13 Jul '14 17:31
    Originally posted by finnegan
    There is a strong suggestion that it was the Americans.

    This does not downplay Britain's contribution but it can also be overplayed: the Balfour Declaration was a part of the politics of WW1 of course and not really very sincere even on the day it was issued, but after all, the British did try to sustain some order there and to restrain excessive levels ...[text shortened]... w/20919295-against-our-better-judgment?from_search=true
    (What a pity Amazon now own Goodreads!)
    I believe it was the British Empire that encouraged the Jewish migration to Palestine after WW1. This was against the promise of T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) presumably on behalf of the British. That and the installation of a puppet government in Iraq was viewed as a great betrayal of the British Empire.
    The promise was that the Arabs would get the entire Arabian peninsula, but oil was too important for the British to give up. That is why we have what we have today.
  8. 13 Jul '14 17:35
    Originally posted by redbadger
    in the end it boils down to the UK giving land away that didn't belong to them.
    Empires don't give anything away unless they get something in return. Israel is a puppet of the Empire.
  9. 13 Jul '14 17:52
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    While the teenagers that were murdered on both sides are tragic, why does Israel feel justified to invade Gaza which will increase the death toll even more than it has already by the recent bombings?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/13/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0FI04420140713

    Is Israel using the 3 teenager's deaths as an excuse to expand it's territory?
    There may be an attitude among Israelis which asks what good giving up control over Gaza produced. This was supposed to produce peace but obviously hasn't.
  10. 13 Jul '14 18:01
    Originally posted by finnegan
    There is a strong suggestion that it was the Americans.

    This does not downplay Britain's contribution but it can also be overplayed: the Balfour Declaration was a part of the politics of WW1 of course and not really very sincere even on the day it was issued, but after all, the British did try to sustain some order there and to restrain excessive levels ...[text shortened]... w/20919295-against-our-better-judgment?from_search=true
    (What a pity Amazon now own Goodreads!)
    It is my impression that the United States was led into WWI by Woodrow Wilson so as to have a say in dividing up land after the war. Still it was mainly Britain and France which had the power to determine how the land of the Ottoman empire would be divided, and what governments would be formed.
  11. 13 Jul '14 18:13
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    While the teenagers that were murdered on both sides are tragic, why does Israel feel justified to invade Gaza which will increase the death toll even more than it has already by the recent bombings?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/13/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0FI04420140713

    Is Israel using the 3 teenager's deaths as an excuse to expand it's territory?
    I think it has more to do with the missiles that are being launched into Israel. You are aware of the fact that Israel is attacking in response to being attacked?
  12. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    13 Jul '14 18:30
    Originally posted by normbenign
    It is my impression that the United States was led into WWI by Woodrow Wilson so as to have a say in dividing up land after the war. Still it was mainly Britain and France which had the power to determine how the land of the Ottoman empire would be divided, and what governments would be formed.
    The British and French did not form an Israeli government in Palestine. Israel was not formed at the end of WWI. What else would you like to add?
  13. 13 Jul '14 20:47
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I think it has more to do with the missiles that are being launched into Israel. You are aware of the fact that Israel is attacking in response to being attacked?
    That is not my understanding. What is your source of information?
  14. 13 Jul '14 20:53
    Originally posted by finnegan
    The British and French did not form an Israeli government in Palestine. Israel was not formed at the end of WWI. What else would you like to add?
    That is not what he said. The British and the French did indeed divide up territory of the Arabian Peninsula that was once part of the Ottoman Empire. Syria was a French colony after WW1, for example.

    France was conquered by the British. Maybe you think the British Empire let France remain autonomous after that, but I would strongly disagree with that. Empires usually make the lands they conquer part of the Empire.
  15. 13 Jul '14 20:55
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    That is not my understanding. What is your source of information?
    The news. Have you not seen the reports on how Israel's anti-missile system has been shooting down about 90% of the rockets fired into Israel?