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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    04 Jan '10 00:58
    It seems to me that I'm hearing more and more talk about white supremicists coming into various positions of power in Europe.

    Is Israel endangering it's own security by not helping the Muslim world rise from "developing" to "developed"? Poor, angry Muslims will be far more likely to make the white supremacists' appeals to fear of the 'other' effective I would think than educated, happy Muslims.
  2. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jan '10 01:23
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Is Israel endangering it's own security by not helping the Muslim world rise from "developing" to "developed"?
    You have to consider what Israel's relations with "the Muslim world" are. Bear in mind, for instance, that Indonesia - world's biggest predominantly Muslim nation and third biggest democracy blah blah blah - does not have diplomatic relations with Israel. It's a long long road ahead for Israel and the "world" it is in a state of Friction with.
  3. 04 Jan '10 01:35
    As much as I don't like Israel, it's not our fault that muslims themselves are backward people.
  4. 04 Jan '10 06:41
    there are some people you just can make friends with.

    muslim nations need bugbears. israel fits the bill. even better for indonesia, israel is 5408 miles away.

    for white supremacists .... in UK, the bugbears (immigrants) are in their backyards .... in US, not so much (in the boonies) ...

    true hatred is probably a hindrance to leadership and ladder-climbing.

    ---

    http://www.mapcrow.info/cgi-bin/cities_distance_airpt2.cgi?city3=-3705818%2CJ&city4=-1119507%2CH

    Jakarta, ID 106.8294
    -6.1744
    Haifa, IS 34.9892
    32.8156
    Miles: 5408.92
    Kilometers: 8704.58
    Bearing: NW
  5. 04 Jan '10 06:42
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia%E2%80%93Israel_relations

    Indonesia–Israel relations

    Indonesia-Israel relations are the foreign relations between Israel and Indonesia. The two countries maintain no formal diplomatic ties. [1][2][3] Most of their informal relations are focussed on Palestine.

    History

    In 1999, Indonesian President Abdurrahman Wahid and Foreign Minister Alwi Shihab mentioned their wishes to open ties with Israel although only at the level of economic and trade links. [4]

    In 2005, the Indonesian Government said that establishing full diplomatic ties with Israel will only be possible after peace has been reached between Israel and the Palestinians.[5] Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom held a discreet first meeting with his Indonesian counterpart Hassan Wirayuda during a UN summit in New York in September 2005. However, President of Indonesia Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono ruled out establishing formal diplomatic ties but said: "Any communication between Indonesian and Israeli officials will be oriented to the objective of assisting the Palestinian people in gaining their independence".[3]

    In July 2006, the Indonesian Government and several Indonesian Muslim groups condemned Israel's ongoing military operation in Gaza and demanded the release of arrested Palestinian officials. The Government said [2]

    During the 2006 Lebanon War, Indonesia called on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.


    In 2006, the Indonesian Foreign Ministry advised that the national tennis team was pulling out of its Federation Cup matches in Israel saying "We are witnessing a military invasion by Israel and the arrest of scores of Palestinian officials...It is now impossible to play there". [6] [7]

    In 2008, the Jakarta Post printed a letter from Israeli Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Majalli Wahabi, urging Indonesia to take a role in advocating for peace in the Middle East. Analysts suggested that the printing of the letter might be a signal of a thaw between the two nations.[8] However, the Gaza War that lasted from late December 27 2008 to January 18 2009 affected relations. Indonesia harshly condemned Israeli action, labelling it as "aggression", and expreessed its support of the Palestinians.
  6. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jan '10 06:52
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia%E2%80%93Israel_relations
    Yes, just like I said, the two countries maintain no formal diplomatic ties. I think it is unhelpful to characterize the plight of the Palestinians as nothing more than a 'bugbear'. The Israeli assault on Gaza Dec '08 - Jan '09 was looked upon with absolute horror all around the world - by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. For there to be a certain degree of solidarity between peoples around the world that feel they have a commonality is no great surprise. It could even prove one day to be an asset in the search for peace in the Middle East.
  7. 04 Jan '10 07:00
    i haven't seen a list of countries who would accept rockets being fired into their country on a regular basis without responding militarily, if capable of doing so.

    of the list of countries who HAVE, i haven't really heard of any except israel, although india is a candidate, with their lack of response to the mumbai attacks.

    anyone expect their home country (and country of residence, if different) to be on the first list?
  8. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jan '10 07:14
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    i haven't seen a list of countries who would accept rockets being fired into their country on a regular basis without responding militarily, if capable of doing so.
    Your apparent contention that the Israel-Palestine problem started in the middle of December 2008 places you way out on the periphery of the efforts to find a solution.
  9. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    04 Jan '10 07:17
    Is the thread title a veiled attempt to punt a self-published book?
  10. 04 Jan '10 07:23
    Originally posted by FMF
    Your apparent contention that the Israel-Palestine problem started in the middle of December 2008 places you way out on the periphery of the efforts to find a solution.
    how did i contend that?
  11. 04 Jan '10 07:24
    when Israel released Gaza (prior to Hamas' election), did Indonesia reward them with better relations?
  12. 04 Jan '10 07:26
    yo, FMF, you've been holding out on us!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_timor#Indonesian_occupation

    ...

    Indonesian rule in East Timor was often marked by extreme violence and brutality; estimates of the number of East Timorese who died during the occupation vary from 60,000 to 200,000,[18] A detailed statistical report prepared for the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor cited a minimum bound of 102,800 conflict-related deaths in the period 1974–1999, namely, approximately 18,600 killings and 84,200 'excess' deaths from hunger and illness.[19]

    ...
  13. 04 Jan '10 07:27
    all the WHINGING you've done on RHP forums about Israel!!!! ....
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jan '10 07:42
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    when Israel released Gaza (prior to Hamas' election), did Indonesia reward them with better relations?
    Apparently there were mid- and low-level feelers going out in an effort to bring Indonesia round so that it could actually play a diplomatic role. But the Gaza War blew it all away. The Indonesian Government has emotional and ideology driven domestic factors and factions to contend with at the same time as being under constant pressure from allies like the U.S. to step up to the plate a little.
  15. 04 Jan '10 07:45
    i guess we shouldn't take those feelers seriously, as gaza was turned over to the PLO in 1993.