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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    30 May '10 20:14
    Yes or no? Does it matter?
  2. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    30 May '10 20:50
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Yes or no? Does it matter?
    Does it matter to what?
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    30 May '10 21:21
    Sorry. Does it matter with respect to the legitimacy of Israel's existence as a country? Many other nations seem to be based on the idea of the nation representing the indiginous ethnicity in their country. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Wales, Mongolia, Denmark...
  4. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    30 May '10 21:42
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Sorry. Does it matter with respect to the legitimacy of Israel's existence as a country? Many other nations seem to be based on the idea of the nation representing the indiginous ethnicity in their country. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Wales, Mongolia, Denmark...
    I'm going to have to ask you to define 'indigenous'.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    30 May '10 22:41
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'm going to have to ask you to define 'indigenous'.
    The definition the United Nations used for this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples
  6. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    30 May '10 23:11 / 1 edit
    To answer my own question: No. Israel is a country, not an ethnicity.

    Revised: Ethnic Jews are indiginous to Israel/Palestine.
  7. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    31 May '10 14:01
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Sorry. Does it matter with respect to the legitimacy of Israel's existence as a country? Many other nations seem to be based on the idea of the nation representing the indiginous ethnicity in their country. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Wales, Mongolia, Denmark...
    Not many Jewish Israelis are indigenous. Most emmigrated there within the last 100 years. Neither are most white/black Americans indigenous.

    The issue is not who is indigenous -- the issue is whose rights are being violated. Black and Native American's rights were "legally violated" for a long time in the US -- but happily no longer.

    In Palestine, many non-Jewish "indigenous" persons are still having their rights violated to this day. This is what needs to change.
  8. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    31 May '10 15:59
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Ethnic Jews are indiginous to Israel/Palestine.
    Ethnic Jews?

    The Hebrews moved into Israel around 1000 BC.
    They had an empire or two there for a good 400 years (give or take the odd decade). And a group of them have lived there since.

    If you're talking US or Russian Jews who haven't smelled Jerusalem since the destruction of the temple, then God no.

    So, yes. Some of them are. Some of them aren't.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    31 May '10 17:02
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Ethnic Jews?

    The Hebrews moved into Israel around 1000 BC.
    They had an empire or two there for a good 400 years (give or take the odd decade). And a group of them have lived there since.

    If you're talking US or Russian Jews who haven't smelled Jerusalem since the destruction of the temple, then God no.

    So, yes. Some of them are. Some of them aren't.
    The Hebrews were indiginous to somewhere. Where?
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    06 Jun '10 21:43
    Well, sh76, I tried to make a pro-Israeli thread. Apparently no one - including yourself - was interested.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Jun '10 23:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Well, sh76, I tried to make a pro-Israeli thread. Apparently no one - including yourself - was interested.
    Well, I appreciate the effort.

    To be 100% honest, I have no idea what the answer to your OP question is; nor do I think it's particularly relevant to the current conflict in any case. Of course, it has academic relevance, but the reason I chose not to participate in the thread is that I simply do not know the answer. If someone has some real evidence on this matter rather than some rehashed speculation, I would certainly be interested in reading it.

    I will say that the question as to why I and my fellow Ashkenazic Jews are white and not more Arab-like is one that has always interested me. I guess I've chalked it up to intermarriage with Europeans; but honestly, who really knows?
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    06 Jun '10 23:24
    Originally posted by sh76
    Well, I appreciate the effort.

    To be 100% honest, I have no idea what the answer to your OP question is; nor do I think it's particularly relevant to the current conflict in any case. Of course, it has academic relevance, but the reason I chose not to participate in the thread is that I simply do not know the answer. If someone has some real evidence on this ...[text shortened]... e. I guess I've chalked it up to intermarriage with Europeans; but honestly, who really knows?
    Well, there are international precedents for the recognition of and protection of indiginous populations. The UN document for example.
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    06 Jun '10 23:25 / 2 edits
    Relevant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions

    EDIT - From above:

    A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population", and stated that "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."[5] Researchers expressed surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world.

    EDIT2 -

    Ashkenazim are the descendants of Jews who migrated into northern France and Germany around 800-1000 AD
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    06 Jun '10 23:42
    Originally posted by sh76
    Well, I appreciate the effort.

    To be 100% honest, I have no idea what the answer to your OP question is; nor do I think it's particularly relevant to the current conflict in any case. Of course, it has academic relevance, but the reason I chose not to participate in the thread is that I simply do not know the answer. If someone has some real evidence on this ...[text shortened]... e. I guess I've chalked it up to intermarriage with Europeans; but honestly, who really knows?
    Arabs are "white" but the south Asian/Jewish version of "white", not the European.
  15. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    06 Jun '10 23:51
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Arabs are "white" but the south Asian/Jewish version of "white", not the European.
    Did you really say this?