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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    West Coast Represent
    22 Jan '10 21:18 / 1 edit
    Was James Madison the Founding Father of the USA a good person or not? He seems to have an elitist, "keep the poor man down" theme to much of his writing (and speaking).
  2. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    22 Jan '10 21:22
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Was James Madison the Founding Father of the USA a good person or not? He seems to have an elitist, "keep the poor man down" theme to much of his writing.
    He was an elitist arrogant fool. He got better as time passed by, that's true but he was ever an elitist arrogant fool.

    Just like most founding fathers actually.
  3. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    22 Jan '10 22:04
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Was James Madison the Founding Father of the USA a good person or not? He seems to have an elitist, "keep the poor man down" theme to much of his writing (and speaking).
    Hamilton was the worst of the elitists.
  4. 22 Jan '10 23:17
    what's wrong with being an elitist?

    look at the alternative. Pol Pot's Cambodia, Mao's China, Liberia for some time, Somalia ...
  5. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    23 Jan '10 00:01
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    what's wrong with being an elitist?

    look at the alternative. Pol Pot's Cambodia, Mao's China, Liberia for some time, Somalia ...
  6. 23 Jan '10 00:03
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    what's wrong with being an elitist?

    look at the alternative. Pol Pot's Cambodia, Mao's China, Liberia for some time, Somalia ...
    Great reply, with the usual results
  7. 23 Jan '10 00:06
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    He was an elitist arrogant fool. He got better as time passed by, that's true but he was ever an elitist arrogant fool.

    Just like most founding fathers actually.
    Thank you for setting us straight on how awful they were.

    Knew them personally did you?
  8. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    23 Jan '10 08:54
    Originally posted by Sam The Sham
    Thank you for setting us straight on how awful they were.

    Knew them personally did you?
    By reading ten sentences from them I already know more about them then 90% of the USA population. And you're included in the 90%.

    How much have you read from Madison? Jefferson? Washington?

    Thought so...
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    West Coast Represent
    23 Jan '10 08:59
    As everyone is on the side of demonizing Madison, I'll offer up this fact: he was the one who came up with the Bill of Rights.
  10. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    23 Jan '10 11:18
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    As everyone is on the side of demonizing Madison, I'll offer up this fact: he was the one who came up with the Bill of Rights.
    Read the original bill of rights. You'll start damning him even harder.

    Madison was an elitist, racist, misogynistic, poor people despising fool.

    Madison was also the main framer of the constitution and of The Federalist Papers. Read all of this and then tell me what you think of Madison.
  11. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    23 Jan '10 11:20 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    what's wrong with being an elitist?

    look at the alternative. Pol Pot's Cambodia, Mao's China, Liberia for some time, Somalia ...
    Ah, the good old false dichotomy fallacy. Gotta love it.

    Anyway, if Pol Pot was such a meanie why did the international community supported him when the Cambodian people were liberated from the Khmer Rouge by the Vietnamese?

    Don't you forget that the USA sent food and weapons to Khmer Rouge soldiers for years after they were defeated and their atrocities were very well known.
  12. 23 Jan '10 13:58
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    By reading ten sentences from them I already know more about them then 90% of the USA population. And you're included in the 90%.

    How much have you read from Madison? Jefferson? Washington?

    Thought so...
    OK I'm interested in the reading you claim to have done on Madison that makes you call him a fool, etc.

    Please give us a few examples of the reason for your hatred of him, inquiring minds want to know.
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    West Coast Represent
    23 Jan '10 14:45
    Here's the example that makes me think about this topic:

    "In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If
    these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and to balance and check the
    other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The Senate, therefore, ought to be this body."

    "An obvious and permanent division of every people is into owners of the Soil, and the other inhabitants. In a certain sense, the Country may be said to belong to the
    former. . . . Whatever may be the rights of others derived from their birth in the
    Country, from their interest in the high ways & other parcels left open for common
    use as well, as in the national Edifices and monuments; from their share in the public defence, and from their concurrent support of the Govt., it would seem unreasonable to extend the right so far as to give them when become the majority, a power of Legislation over the landed property without the consent of the proprietors."

    "That proportion being without property, or the hope of acquiring it, cannot be expected to sympathize sufficiently with its rights, to be safe depositories of power over them."

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/yates.asp
  14. 23 Jan '10 14:52
    He co-authored The Federalist Papers. For that alone he rises above such petty criticisms.
  15. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    23 Jan '10 17:22
    Originally posted by badmoon
    He co-authored The Federalist Papers. For that alone he rises above such petty criticisms.
    I think the Anti-Federalists were much more on the mark. Much of what they feared has come to pass and we are all the worse for it.