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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    24 Jun '17 19:06 / 2 edits
    And believe it, the crowd had a choice when they came to watch him. There are more stages at the festival site.

    Messages for Trump may please our friends over the water.

    Remind me how many politicians would survive at a venue like this one....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSEmuPMwvMQ
  2. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    24 Jun '17 19:12
    "Nothing was ever given from above. It was only ever achieved by pressure from below - from the masses of the people."

    Maybe that - and acting on that belief, not just mouthing it - is what makes Jeremy different and capable of breaking through.
  3. Subscriber divegeester
    Nice suit...
    25 Jun '17 08:03 / 1 edit
    He's a yet unaccountable political ideologue appealing to the young idealists few of whom will have given one thought to how he will fund his manifesto and the economic carnage it will bring once executed. He has the luxury of being a preacher without accountability. It's almost worth him getting the Premeriship just to see the economic and subsequent social meltdown as he implements that Walt Disney manifesto.
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    25 Jun '17 09:17
    Originally posted by divegeester
    He's a yet unaccountable political ideologue appealing to the young idealists few of whom will have given one thought to how he will fund his manifesto and the economic carnage it will bring once executed. He has the luxury of being a preacher without accountability. It's almost worth him getting the Premeriship just to see the economic and subsequent social meltdown as he implements that Walt Disney manifesto.
    Economic and social meltdown - did you notice the 2008 crash?

    Funding of the proposed programme is fully set out in the Labour manifesto and has widespread endoresment among economists.

    Austerity is a fraud. The transformation of a mixed economy with a large middle class back towards a vastly wealthy plutocracy with an economy based on inecure and low paid work is the most radical transformation of our society possible - all in the hands of a cabinet of incompetent kleptomaniacs.

    Neoliberal ideology is violently and catastrophically harming our social and physical environment.
  5. 25 Jun '17 09:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Economic and social meltdown - did you notice the 2008 crash?

    Funding of the proposed programme is fully set out in the Labour manifesto and has widespread endoresment among economists.

    Austerity is a fraud. The transformation of a mixed economy with a large middle class back towards a vastly wealthy plutocracy with an economy based on inecure an ...[text shortened]... oliberal ideology is violently and catastrophically harming our social and physical environment.
    If you mean by 'fully costed', there are numbers for spending plans on one side, and the numbers on the other side of the page for taxes add up to the same, then I agree.

    But I don't believe for a second many people in the Labour Party think that the tax raising measures would raise anything like the sums presented.

    The IFS didn't think so either.

    On tax:
    Labour have a set of policies intended to raise £49 billion per year from the “rich” and, overwhelmingly, from companies. The policies would indeed raise tax significantly. But the £49 billion calculation includes some factual mistakes with regard to part of their tax avoidance package, optimistic assumptions and unspecified tax increases. Their proposals could be expected to raise at most £40 billion in the short run, and less in the long run;
  6. 25 Jun '17 10:08
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    If you mean by 'fully costed', there are numbers for spending plans on one side, and the numbers on the other side of the page for taxes add up to the same, then I agree.

    But I don't believe for a second many people in the Labour Party think that the tax raising measures would raise anything like the sums presented.

    The IFS didn't think so either ...[text shortened]... uld be expected to raise at most £40 billion in the short run, and less in the long run;[/quote]
    If the election manifesto (supposedly) overestimates the benefits of a policy by less than 20%, then I'd say the manifesto is pretty honest.
  7. 25 Jun '17 10:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    If the election manifesto (supposedly) overestimates the benefits of a policy by less than 20%, then I'd say the manifesto is pretty honest.
    I think you missed the 'at best' and 'in the short run'. This was not their view of the likely outcome over the life of a Parliament.
  8. Subscriber divegeester
    Nice suit...
    25 Jun '17 11:24
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Economic and social meltdown - did you notice the 2008 crash?

    Funding of the proposed programme is fully set out in the Labour manifesto and has widespread endoresment among economists.

    Austerity is a fraud. The transformation of a mixed economy with a large middle class back towards a vastly wealthy plutocracy with an economy based on inecure an ...[text shortened]... oliberal ideology is violently and catastrophically harming our social and physical environment.
    Tax and spend you mean.

    Sure I noticed the 2008 crash; I believe Gordon Brown was PM after Blair abandoned the helm when he saw the mess coming.
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    25 Jun '17 11:58 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Tax and spend you mean.

    Sure I noticed the 2008 crash; I believe Gordon Brown was PM after Blair abandoned the helm when he saw the mess coming.
    Yes Gordon Brown was in charge of US property speculation and Irish investment banking and Iceland's highyl speculative banking system and .... not.

    The crash was global, so looking for a narrative based on Labour's spending on hospitals and schools is pretty limp. It is just Tory distraction and of course for economic illiterates it worked fine as a political strategy, especially as Milliband's Labour lacked the bottle to argue back at the time. Corbyn is starting the huge task of pulling the public back from that nonsense in the face of huge media hostility. Indeed, there are suggestions that Treeza Mayhem's cabinet may also have begun to notice that austerity is not working for anyone - thanks to Corbyn's impact in the elections.

    But that narrative is purely political and lacks any foundation in economics whatsoever. The problem, rather, was in a global failure of regulation over the financial system. The solution is not even less regulation (Trump, the Tories and their City backers], but better regulation.

    The financial system crashed fundamentally and what we see today is the product of immense public sector investment. You need to ask yourself how it came about that the UK government alone was able, at its peak, to put £955bn into its rescue for the banking system. [The US sums were vastly greater.] Was it really true to say that public finances were not robust and capable of working for the collective good? no. But the reality under the Tories has been the use of public resources to refinance the speculators and the spivs. The selling off of public (meaning our shared] assets for pivate greed has been a route to provide the City with new avenues for profitable speculation in the context of failing markets.

    Private debt, not public debt, is the economic basis for the 2008 crash and the current lack of decent economic development. Continuing to fund speculative asset bubbles for the wealthy is not a route to recovery. While the rich keep getting richer, most people have not had a pay rise in forty years and low paid, insecure work with next to zero worker rights is not a model for improving the lot of most people.

    [Blair left because he had run out of road in his dishonest and manipulative political strategy. He was not wanted any more and he knew it. He is still not wanted.]
  10. Subscriber divegeester
    Nice suit...
    25 Jun '17 12:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Yes Gordon Brown was in charge of US property speculation and Irish investment banking and Iceland's highyl speculative banking system and .... not.

    The crash was global, so looking for a narrative based on Labour's spending on hospitals and schools is pretty limp. It is just Tory distraction and of course for economic illiterates it worked fine as ...[text shortened]... ative political strategy. He was not wanted any more and he knew it. He is still not wanted.]
    Agree with you on Blair completely. However I voted and passionately supported a labour government after the disastrous end to the previous Tory government. I felt and still feel that those early Blair and Brown years were an excellent administration and I fully supported and still do support, vastly increased spending on the NHS, school, housing, social infrastructure. I'm not a Tory...I'm just no where near as leftist as you are. I agree that this current administration is too far right but I just don't trust Corbyn. His own party may have temporarily sheathed their blades, but they wanted him out for a reason.
  11. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    25 Jun '17 13:00
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Agree with you on Blair completely. However I voted and passionately supported a labour government after the disastrous end to the previous Tory government. I felt and still feel that those early Blair and Brown years were an excellent administration and I fully supported and still do support, vastly increased spending on the NHS, school, housing, social ...[text shortened]... His own party may have temporarily sheathed their blades, but they wanted him out for a reason.
    Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Mainfesto are also nowhere near as "Leftist" as I am. However, it is his policies, not mine, under debate.

    There is indeed a reason "they want him out." They need to decide if they are going to remain in the party, which has rejected their policies, and if so if they are prepared to change their opinions and oppose austerity with its attendant right wing social attitudes.
  12. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    25 Jun '17 14:37
    Psst, can someone please tell Corbyn he lost the election.
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    25 Jun '17 15:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Psst, can someone please tell Corbyn he lost the election.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHcjO3QADoo

    In every child there is a poem.
    In every child there is a painting.


    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    25 Jun '17 15:29
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOYqmKR_LBU
  15. 25 Jun '17 16:18
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Psst, can someone please tell Corbyn he lost the election.
    Did he really? The news papers and programs here in Germany are of the opinion that Teresa May lost.