Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    30 Aug '18 02:101 edit
    Since we are forced to hear about John McCain over and over again in the news media, lets talk about the not so heroic aspects of McCain that the news media has omitted since his death.

    "In the propaganda recording, Lt. Commander McCain said he was “guilty of crimes against the Vietnamese country and people.” He confessed that he bombed “their cities, towns, and villages and caused many injuries, even deaths, for the people of Vietnam.”

    He praised the medical care and kindness of his communist captors even though he came to North Vietnam as “an aggressor.” McCain said he wished to express his “deep gratitude” for their “kind treatment” and that he “will never forget” the kindness extended to him by the communist North Vietnamese."

    https://www.trunews.com/article/john-mccains-1969-tokyo-rose-propaganda-recording-released
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    30 Aug '18 02:331 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Since we are forced to hear about John McCain over and over again in the news media, lets talk about the not so heroic aspects of McCain that the news media has omitted since his death.

    "In the propaganda recording, Lt. Commander McCain said he was “guilty of crimes against the Vietnamese country and people.” He confessed that he bombed “their cities ...[text shortened]... ."

    https://www.trunews.com/article/john-mccains-1969-tokyo-rose-propaganda-recording-released
    Despite not voting for Trump (you said), you've certainly jumped aboard the Trump train heart and soul. And you weren't even tortured for five years like McCain was.

    What's your excuse?
  3. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    30 Aug '18 04:08
    It's not appropriate to talk about these things immediately after his death and it's not appropriate to criticize what men did under threat of torture.
  4. Joined
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    30 Aug '18 05:501 edit
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    It's not appropriate to talk about these things immediately after his death and it's not appropriate to criticize what men did under threat of torture.
    It's not appropriate to talk about McCain for days while ignoring important news reports.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/iran-full-control-gulf-strait-083212921.html

    All McCain fought for in Vietnam was French imperialism. He was no hero. What he said under threat of torture was the most honest thing he ever said in his life.

    He was a warmonger. Good riddance to him.

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/
  5. Joined
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    30 Aug '18 05:53
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Despite not voting for Trump (you said), you've certainly jumped aboard the Trump train heart and soul. And you weren't even tortured for five years like McCain was.

    What's your excuse?
    What does this have to do with Trump? I don't even like Trump. I only defend him when it is obvious there is a double standard held against him.
  6. Subscribersonhouseonline
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    30 Aug '18 07:191 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    It's not appropriate to talk about McCain for days while ignoring important news reports.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/iran-full-control-gulf-strait-083212921.html

    All McCain fought for in Vietnam was French imperialism. He was no hero. What he said under threat of torture was the most honest thing he ever said in his life.

    He was a warmonger. Good riddance to him.

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/
    What the FUK are you talking about 'under the THREAT of torture'? He was physically assaulted daily by as much as ten guards at a time and when they found his dad was an admiral they thought they could get some propaganda points by releasing him early and he refused, knowing there were many others way ahead of him in the release date thing.
    How DARE you attack a real hero, and we are not making him into a god, he was on the opposite side of the fence from me personally but he had one enduring quality, that of working with people on both sides of the isle.
    I speak as one who honorably served 4 years in the military, a Viet Nam era veteran and I despise your sick efforts to condemn such a man especially after his death.
    SHAME on you and your sick agenda.

    What military service were YOU in, if any? Or were you like your buddy Trump, given a bye because of BONE SPURS?
    I wonder just how much his doctor got paid for THAT shameful affair. More shameful than paying off Stormy by a long shot.
    And shameful also was his silence when asked about McCain and being forced by aides to run the flag at half mast only to go full mast a day later before McCain was even laid to rest then his aides convinced him to go half mast the next day, just like every other decision this poor excuse of a POTUS makes.
    History will remember McCain in a much MUCH better light than ANYTHING you will be remembered for you sick son of a bitch.
  7. Joined
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    30 Aug '18 08:42
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    What the FUK are you talking about 'under the THREAT of torture'? He was physically assaulted daily by as much as ten guards at a time and when they found his dad was an admiral they thought they could get some propaganda points by releasing him early and he refused, knowing there were many others way ahead of him in the release date thing.
    How DARE you a ...[text shortened]... in in a much MUCH better light than ANYTHING you will be remembered for you sick son of a bitch.
    Vietnam was an unjust war for imperialism. McCain was also a corrupt POS!

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/

    History doesn't remember people. People remember people and what you hear is not necessarily the whole story. Your failure to remember that is why you are a sick SOB.
  8. Subscribersonhouseonline
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    30 Aug '18 14:46
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Vietnam was an unjust war for imperialism. McCain was also a corrupt POS!

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/

    History doesn't remember people. People remember people and what you hear is not necessarily the whole story. Your failure to remember that is why you are a sick SOB.
    Nice deflection but I do notice you didn't say what branch of US military service you served in.
    If you can say you were tortured for 5 years maybe you can be on the same page.
    But McCain fully admits he was flawed and before he was captured we know he was basically a playboy.
    That in no way changes what he became and his ability to talk to both sides of the floor.
    So where did you serve? Did you get a deferment based on bone spurs like Trump?
  9. Donationmwmiller
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    30 Aug '18 15:041 edit
    The english language can be confusing at times.
    Is a "vietnam-era veteran" the same thing as a "vietnam war veteran"?
    Just curious?
  10. Standard memberHandyAndy
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    30 Aug '18 16:03
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    It's not appropriate to talk about McCain for days while ignoring important news reports.
    “Few of us have been tested the way John once was, or required to show the kind of courage that he did. But all of us can aspire to the courage to put the greater good above our own. At John’s best, he showed us what that means. And for that, we are all in his debt." ~ Barack Obama
  11. Joined
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    30 Aug '18 16:331 edit
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    Nice deflection but I do notice you didn't say what branch of US military service you served in.
    If you can say you were tortured for 5 years maybe you can be on the same page.
    But McCain fully admits he was flawed and before he was captured we know he was basically a playboy.
    That in no way changes what he became and his ability to talk to both sides of the floor.
    So where did you serve? Did you get a deferment based on bone spurs like Trump?
    I never joined the military. I have 3 brothers that served in the military and they never saw heavy combat so they were lucky. My mother never liked the military and discouraged me from joining. She was not a blind follower like most people were and are now. She was an exceptionally intelligent woman that knew war was a racket.
    McCain was on his way to bomb a civilian target when he was shot down. He was going to bomb a light bulb factory. He deserved to be tortured and they should have killed him. He has brought a lot of death and suffering to people since his release. He is a Nazi sympathizer and an all around evil POS.
    McCain was a typical dishonest politician. He spoke out against Obamacare saying he wanted it repealed and later voted for it when he was the deciding vote to repeal the individual mandate. All he did was betray both sides of the floor. Don't forget the S&L scandal. He admitted to being flawed because his corruption was evident. Then he co-sponsored the McCain Feingold act and that was deliberate effort to pretend to solve a problem they had no intention of solving. That legislation did nothing to curb campaign finance corruption at all. It was a complete farce!

    I didn't laugh and joke about his death like Hitlery Clinton did with Gaddafi, but I am glad he is not here to fuk the world up even more than he has. He was a complete a-hole!
  12. Joined
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    30 Aug '18 16:40
    Originally posted by @handyandy
    “Few of us have been tested the way John once was, or required to show the kind of courage that he did. But all of us can aspire to the courage to put the greater good above our own. At John’s best, he showed us what that means. And for that, we are all in his debt." ~ Barack Obama
    A corrupt establishment politician praising another corrupt establishment politician. Am I supposed to be surprised?

    Do organized crime syndicates say good things about their loyal operatives after they die? You bet they do!
    Why would you expect anything different with the highest level of organized crime syndicate in the world?

    You need to read this:

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/
  13. Subscribersonhouseonline
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    30 Aug '18 17:11
    Originally posted by @mwmiller
    The english language can be confusing at times.
    Is a "vietnam-era veteran" the same thing as a "vietnam war veteran"?
    Just curious?
    Vietnam era just means I was in the military during that useless war but never sent to VN, only got as close as Thailand, NKP AFB, now totally Thai, given to the Thai's after the war.
    I spent most of my time in a now defunct Air force base, Lincoln AFB, long gone and now some kind of housing project. I was able to visit Laos which was totally illegal but I wanted to see the place. Gave 2 dollars to a boatman, who was in fact Thai military, took of his amulets, now he is a civilian, took me across the Mekong, he gave one dollar to the Lao guard there, I wandered around Ta Kek in Laos for about 6 hours, time to go back, the guard was still there, took me across and everyone was happy🙂
  14. Zugzwang
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    30 Aug '18 18:544 edits
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Vietnam was an unjust war for imperialism. McCain was also a corrupt POS!

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/

    History doesn't remember people. People remember people and what you hear is not necessarily the whole story. Your failure to remember that is why you are a sick SOB.
    First of all, I don't necessarily agree with everything that MetalBrain writes about John McCain.
    But MetalBrain has cited sources (including the Huffington Post) that offer a much needed
    balance in discussion, in contrast to the ignorant hero-worshipping of John McCain here.
    I support MetalBrain's right to speak freely despite many efforts here to shout him down.

    "Vietnam was an unjust war for imperialism."
    --MetalBrain

    By daring to express this unpopular belief among 'patriotic' Americans, MetalBrain shows
    more moral courage and decency than Sonhouse, an apologist (at best) for US imperialism.

    https://popularresistance.org/the-other-side-of-john-mccain/
    "The Other Side of John McCain"

    "If the paeans to McCain by diverse political climbers seems detached from reality, it’s
    because they reflect the elite view of U.S. military interventions as a chess game, with
    the millions killed by unprovoked aggression mere statistics."

    Few Americans (including 'liberals' ) sincerely object to the USA killing millions of non-white civilians.

    "The late senator has also been treated to gratuitous tributes from an array of prominent
    liberals, from George Soros to his soft power-pushing client, Ken Roth, along with three
    fellow directors of Human Rights Watch and “democratic socialist” celebrity Alexandra
    Ocasio-Cortez, who hailed McCain as “an unparalleled example of human decency.”"

    Would the extremely naive (at best) Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez object to John McCain's
    strong support of brutal right-wing dictatorships or 'death squads' in Central America?

    "During the Vietnam war, McCain had been captured by the North Vietnamese Army
    after being shot down on his way to bomb a civilian lightbulb factory."

    Wikipedia gives more details of John McCain's last mission, bombing a target in a civilian area.

    "On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane
    strike force against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[104][105] that
    *previously had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of
    collateral damage. [civilian casualties]* [102] Arriving just before noon, McCain dove
    from 9,000 to 4,000 feet on his approach;[106] as he neared the target, warning systems
    in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk alerted him that he was being tracked by enemy fire-control radar.[107]
    Like other U.S. pilots in similar situations, he did not break off the bombing run,[62] and
    he held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 m).[108] As he
    started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile..."
    --Wikipedia

    "I hate the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."
    --John McCain (2000)

    "After he was criticized for the racist remark, McCain refused to apologize.
    “I was referring to my prison guards,” he said, “and I will continue to refer to them in language
    that might offend some people because of the beating and torture of my friends.”

    Would John McCain also have insisted on continuing to use the 'N-word' because he
    believed that (hypothetically) he or his friends had been mistreated by a few black people?

    The US media's obsession with (and sometimes exaggeration of) the abuse of many,
    though not all, American POWs in North Vietnam is a popular diversion (for 'liberals' too)
    from the many much worse war crimes that the USA inflicted upon people in Indochina.

    In reality, the USA or its South Vietnamese ally routinely tortured or murdered their real or
    suspected Communist enemies, and few Americans seem sincerely to object to those crimes.
    An American POW captured and held in North Vietnam evidently had a better chance of
    survival than a PAVN or NLF soldier captured by the USA or its South Vietnamese ally.
    In general, captured Americans were treated better than alleged Communist combatants who were captured.

    In fact, during the 1960s-70s, some Americans who had been captured by the NLF attested
    (sometimes in memoirs) that they had received fair treatment under difficult conditions for the NLF.
    After being released, an American nurse denied that she had been raped or sexually assaulted
    by the NLF, whereas it was common (and almost never punished) for American soldiers
    to rape Vietnamese women and girls. When an American soldier murdered a Vietnamese
    woman or girl after raping her, he became what the Americans called a 'double veteran'.
    There seemed to be little, if any, stigma attached to Americans boasting of being 'double veterans'.

    To sum up, contrary to what most 'patriotic' Americans eagerly want to believe today,
    Americans were far from being the innocent victims in their brutal racist war in Indochina.

    "There were few figures in recent American life who dedicated themselves so personally
    to the perpetuation of war and empire as McCain."

    A fair assessment. Almost all Americans here support US imperialism, and so they
    admire and extol John McCain for his zealous support of US imperialism and militarism.

    "American media may have sought to bury this legacy with the senator’s body,
    but it is what much of the outside world will remember him for."

    I shall remember John McCain as an avowed enemy (I oppose US imperialism), who
    showed personal courage, yet was far from an exemplar of 'human decency'.
  15. Zugzwang
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    30 Aug '18 19:311 edit
    Originally posted by @sonhouse to MetalBrain
    What the FUK are you talking about 'under the THREAT of torture'? He was physically assaulted daily by as much as ten guards at a time and when they found his dad was an admiral they thought they could get some propaganda points by releasing him early and he refused, knowing there were many others way ahead of him in the release date thing.
    ...[text shortened]... in in a much MUCH better light than ANYTHING you will be remembered for you sick son of a bitch.
    Sonhouse, a jingoistic supporter of US imperialism, should read (though I doubt that he will)
    this eloquent condemnation (by a white American) of the USA's many war crimes in Indochina.

    _Kill Anything That Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam_ by Nick Turse
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