Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    30 Aug '16 22:213 edits
    Kayla Mueller was an American humanitarian aid worker, who was captured by
    ISIS in August 2013 while traveling with her Syrian boyfriend to help install communications
    equipment at a MSF (Doctors Without Borders) hospital in Aleppo, Syria.

    Her parents recently appeared in an ABC television news documentary
    in which they strongly criticized the US government (including President Obama)
    and MSF for failing to do enough to help Kayla Mueller and for obstructing
    their private efforts to obtain her release from ISIS.

    MSF has paid ransom to obtain the release of its employees held by ISIS
    (which included women who knew Kayla Mueller as a hostage). But
    Kayla Mueller was not a MSF employee and not on a MSF-approved mission.
    Her parents argued that MSF still has some responsibility because she
    was captured while traveling in a MSF vehicle toward a MSF facility.
    MSF argues that it had no responsibility for Kayla Mueller, and any attempts
    to help non-MSF employees could endanger MSF employees remaining there.
    Her parents criticized MSF for initially refusing to release contact information
    for the ISIS people holding Kayla Mueller as a hostage.

    Her parents participated in exchanging E-mails (over many months) with ISIS,
    though what they wrote was scripted by the FBI and apparently had to be
    approved by the US government. Now her parents believe that they were
    naïve to assume that the US government had the same interests as theirs
    and assigned the highest priority to Kayla Mueller's safety and freedom.
    ISIS opened negotiations by demanding, as one condition, a ransom of five million Euros.
    But, acting according to their FBI handlers, the Mueller family made no counter-offer.
    Unlike many other governments, the US government absolutely opposed (at that time)
    paying any money to ISIS as ransom for hostages. And the US government
    threatened to prosecute any US citizens who paid or helped raise money for ransom.
    The Mueller family said that some wealthy Americans had provisionally
    agreed to donate money toward Kayla Mueller's ransom, but they were
    dissuaded by the US government's threats to prosecute them.

    Although Kayla Mueller seems to have been treated less abusively during
    her first year in captivity than later, once ISIS concluded that the negotiations
    were a case of the Americans playing for time and would lead nowhere, that changed.
    Reportedly, Kayla Mueller was repeatedly raped by ISIS's leader himself.
    In February 2015 ISIS claimed that she had been killed by an air strike.
    It's unknown what happened to her remains.

    Some people suspect that ISIS murdered her and exploited the air strike as a cover story.
    ISIS has shown that it's capable of worse cruelty than killing a female hostage.
    But what could have motivated ISIS to do so in this case? Its leader reportedly
    enjoyed raping Kayla Mueller, a white American Christian young woman.
    Assuming there was no contraception, she may have got impregnated, sooner or later.
    It seems unlikely that ISIS's leader would have approved of killing a woman who *could* be carrying his child.
    I suspect that ISIS';s leader would have found it more enjoyable (or useful
    for propaganda) if he could have impregnated Kayla Mueller and had her
    give birth to his son, who then would be brought up and trained to fight
    for ISIS against the USA. In that case, one may wonder about how
    Kayla Mueller would have felt toward her child, who was born innocent
    even though conceived in rape by a man whom she absolutely loathed.

    During the USA's wars with the "Indians', some captured white women or
    girls became (under varying duress) the wives of 'Indian' warriors and gave
    birth to sons who brought up to become warriors fighting against the USA.

    Should the US government have blocked the Mueller family or its supporters
    from paying a private ransom to ISIS for Kayla Mueller's release?
  2. Standard memberSleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    Dustbin of history
    Joined
    13 Apr '07
    Moves
    12727
    30 Aug '16 23:541 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Should the US government have blocked the Mueller family or its supporters
    from paying a private ransom to ISIS for Kayla Mueller's release?
    Yes.
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    31 Aug '16 02:321 edit
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    Yes.
    After Kayla Mueller's death, the US government changed its policy to allow private ransom in the future.
    Her parents wish, of course, that it had been changed earlier.
  4. Standard memberSleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    Dustbin of history
    Joined
    13 Apr '07
    Moves
    12727
    31 Aug '16 03:05
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    After Kayla Mueller's death, the US government changed its policy to allow private ransom in the future.
    Her parents wish, of course, that it had been changed earlier.
    And?
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    31 Aug '16 06:22
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    And?
    IF my daughter was held by ISIS and I was able to raise sufficient funds to secure her release, nothing the US government said or did would stop me from doing so.

    And I seriously doubt they would have the nerve to charge anyone who did so.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52853
    31 Aug '16 12:35
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Kayla Mueller was an American humanitarian aid worker, who was captured by
    ISIS in August 2013 while traveling with her Syrian boyfriend to help install communications
    equipment at a MSF (Doctors Without Borders) hospital in Aleppo, Syria.

    Her parents recently appeared in an ABC television news documentary
    in which they strongly criticized the US gov ...[text shortened]... ller family or its supporters
    from paying a private ransom to ISIS for Kayla Mueller's release?
    So is it known for sure she is dead?
  7. Unknown Territories
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    31 Aug '16 12:501 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Kayla Mueller was an American humanitarian aid worker, who was captured by
    ISIS in August 2013 while traveling with her Syrian boyfriend to help install communications
    equipment at a MSF (Doctors Without Borders) hospital in Aleppo, Syria.

    Her parents recently appeared in an ABC television news documentary
    in which they strongly criticized the US gov ...[text shortened]... ller family or its supporters
    from paying a private ransom to ISIS for Kayla Mueller's release?
    Why do we Americans insist on being such incessant busybodies?
    Officially, unofficially and every stripe between, why are we so obsessed with getting into everyone's business but our own?
    All due respect and extended condolences of a sorrow with weight impossible to remove to the Mueller family, but why in God's name did Kayla insist on going there?
    There are countless other people in need of humanitarian assistance throughout the world, and plenty of the same right in the backyard.
    Was it the allure of danger?
    How'd that work out?

    And militarily, how much longer are we going to accept the nearly eight decades-long justification of "stabilizing" regions?
    Regions which we are nearly universally responsible for destabilizing in the first place, which remain destabilized in perpetuity?
    Does anybody--- anywhere--- seriously hold that the rest of the world would collapse were these über critical regions left to fend for themselves?
    America has given up on entire cities, targets it's own citizenry and inexplicably continues a-rollin' along just fine.
    The Monroe Doctrine was written with at least one goal in mind: prevent future leaders from the temptation of imperialism, rendering the US a nation of despots.
    If we could peel back this garish wallpaper we've been forced to live with, we'd find the simplicity of that insightful charter not only much more satisfying, but the added benefit of being pure, right.
  8. Standard memberSleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    Dustbin of history
    Joined
    13 Apr '07
    Moves
    12727
    31 Aug '16 15:53
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    IF my daughter was held by ISIS and I was able to raise sufficient funds to secure her release, nothing the US government said or did would stop me from doing so.

    And I seriously doubt they would have the nerve to charge anyone who did so.
    That's an understandable sentiment, surely one I would share in the same situation. But it's just bluster. The reasons for not aiding our war enemies with cash nor encouraging more kidnappings are sane and obvious. War sucks and requires hard decisions and resolve.
  9. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    31 Aug '16 19:00
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So is it known for sure she is dead?
    ISIS sent her parents an E-mail with photos of Kayla Mueller's dead body.
    Her parents identified her and concluded that she's dead.
    The US military has refused to investigate whether or not she was killed by an air strike.

    Was Kayla Mueller intentionally murdered by ISIS? It seems to me that she would be
    more valuable to ISIS if she were still alive, the only American woman held by ISIS.
    Reportedly, she was being repeatedly raped by ISIS's leader (who might not bother
    with contraception), so she probably would have been impregnated sooner or later.
    I doubt that ISIS's leader would approve of killing a woman who could be carrying his child.
  10. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    31 Aug '16 19:091 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder to Sleepguy
    IF my daughter was held by ISIS and I was able to raise sufficient funds to secure her release,
    nothing the US government said or did would stop me from doing so.

    And I seriously doubt they would have the nerve to charge anyone who did so.
    According to the Mueller family, the US government's threats of prosecution were enough
    to deter wealthy sympathizers (unrelated to the Muellers) from donating money for ransom.
    I have no doubt that her parents would be willing to risk imprisonment in exchange for their daughter's safe return.
    But people who did not love Kayla Mueller as much would do a different benefit / risk assessment.

    According to the Mueller family, a government official in Qatar said that he could not
    comprehend the US government's hard line against paying any ransom for Kayla Mueller.
    He noted that the US government had agreed to exchange five Taliban members (held
    at Guantanamo) for Bowe Bergdahl, who had been captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
    Why would the US government be willing to negotiate with the Taliban but not ISIS?

    Kayla Mueller's parents apparently believe that they probably could have secured their
    daughter's release if the US government had not obstructed their efforts to free her.
    Would President Obama take an equally hard line if his daughter were captured by ISIS?
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    31 Aug '16 19:21
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Why do we Americans insist on being such incessant busybodies?
    Officially, unofficially and every stripe between, why are we so obsessed with getting into everyone's business but our own?
    All due respect and extended condolences of a sorrow with weight impossible to remove to the Mueller family, but why in God's name did Kayla insist on going [i]there[/ ...[text shortened]... at insightful charter not only much more satisfying, but the added benefit of being pure, right.
    Kayla Mueller *normally* worked in Turkey (where she was safe), not in Syria.
    Her Syrian boyfriend persuaded her to make a quick visit to a MSF hospital in Aleppo.
    Given that she would travel in a MSF vehicle with MSF people, she assumed that she would be safe.
    (It should be noted that at that time (August 2013), ISIS was less notorious for capturing Americans.)
    She had no intention of staying in Aleppo for more than a day or two.

    In retrospect, of course, Kayla Mueller made an error. But I don't believe that she rushed
    to embrace extreme risks. It was plausible that she would be safe traveling with MSF people.
    And she trusted her Syrian boyfriend. A woman in love can take risks when she's in love.
  12. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    31 Aug '16 19:23
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    And?
    In contrast to Sleepyguy, the US government reconsidered its policy and concluded it was mistaken.
  13. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    31 Aug '16 19:361 edit
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy to No1Marauder
    That's an understandable sentiment, surely one I would share in the same situation. But it's just bluster. The reasons for not aiding our war enemies with cash nor encouraging more kidnappings are sane and obvious. War sucks and requires hard decisions and resolve.
    Not every US citizen approves of the USA's wars (or military interventions) in the Middle East.

    Other governments are willing to allow or even to pay ransom to ISIS for the release of their citizens.
    So are their citizens at greater risk than US citizens of being held hostage by ISIS?
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    31 Aug '16 22:14
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    That's an understandable sentiment, surely one I would share in the same situation. But it's just bluster. The reasons for not aiding our war enemies with cash nor encouraging more kidnappings are sane and obvious. War sucks and requires hard decisions and resolve.
    Of course, we are not at war with ISIS (we'd have to recognize it as a State and get Congress to vote for war under the Constitution) but it has been a standard practice since antiquity for private parties to ransom prisoners even during war. To "ransom the captive" is one of the traditional Seven Acts of Corporal Mercy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_of_mercy). A government policy interfering with such an established practice is cruel and contrary to the idea of limited government and to the very purpose that individuals join into the society i.e. for their own protection.

    After Kayla was killed, the US government refused to investigate the cause of her death because ISIS claimed it occurred during a Jordanian airstrike; ISIS isn't a "credible" source according to our betters in Washington. However, these same officials were perfectly willing to spread rumors that Kayla had been sexually abused during her captivity - information that came from ISIS sources. The difference is obvious; verification of the first could have damaged the propaganda value of her death while reporting the second unverified rumors aided the call to "war" against ISIS.

    The State has no legitimate power which would justify telling a family that their daughter must die or be held in slavery or worse merely to aid the war propaganda of the State. If the nation was under direct attack and invasion, such a justification might exist but not when it is merely the outgrowth of the incessant, aggressive meddling in other nation's affairs that has marked US foreign policy for the last century or so.
  15. Unknown Territories
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    31 Aug '16 22:23
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Kayla Mueller *normally* worked in Turkey (where she was safe), not in Syria.
    Her Syrian boyfriend persuaded her to make a quick visit to a MSF hospital in Aleppo.
    Given that she would travel in a MSF vehicle with MSF people, she assumed that she would be safe.
    (It should be noted that at that time (August 2013), ISIS was less notorious for capturing Am ...[text shortened]... ple.
    And she trusted her Syrian boyfriend. A woman in love can take risks when she's in love.
    A woman in love can take risks when she's in love.
    Now--- finally now--- you're speaking my language.
Back to Top