Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    08 Jun '07
    01 Sep '17 18:351 edit

    "A judge ruled this veteran is a US citizen. Now he faces deportation to Mexico.
    The case of George Ybarra, currently in an Arizona detention center, has
    been criticized as a cruel and extraordinary application of immigration laws."

    "A decorated US marine corps veteran who a federal judge ruled was an
    American citizen is facing deportation to Mexico, in a case that has been
    criticized as a cruel and extraordinary application of immigration laws.

    The US government’s ongoing effort to deport George Ybarra, who is
    currently locked up in an Arizona detention center, has shed light on the
    vulnerabilities of foreign-born Americans who have served in the military,
    along with the deportation threats that can plague even those who are
    deemed to be citizens and have deep ties to the country."

    "Ybarra, also known as Jorge Ibarra-Lopez, was born in Nogales in Mexico,
    just south of the Arizona border, in 1964, according to his court filings.
    He moved to the US months after he was born, and his maternal grandfather
    was a US citizen, born in Bisbee, Arizona, his lawyers wrote.
    Ybarra has long argued that he has “derivative citizenship”, meaning he
    is a citizen by virtue of his mother’s status."

    "Margaret Stock, an immigration attorney and expert on military cases,
    said the deportation of veterans has been an ongoing challenge under
    both Obama and Donald Trump, but that she has never seen a case like
    Ybarra where the government threatens to deport someone ruled a citizen by a judge."

    Would George Ybarra be facing deportation under the same circumstances if he were white?
  2. Zugzwang
    08 Jun '07
    01 Sep '17 18:47

    "Would you say you love America to get a US passport?
    The citizenship process seeks promises of devotion. I admire the US, but there are limits."
    --Emma Brockes

    "The [US citizenship test] questions ranged wildly from the bleeding obvious to the abstract,
    to the one she least wanted to answer: “Why are you here?” Open questions can seem
    like a trick, but clearly the response being fished for in this case was: “I’m here because
    I love America.” She wasn’t convinced she could say it."

    "I have been in the US for almost 10 years and I can’t say I love it, either. ... Even if I did,
    however, being forced to state that love to an immigration official would strongly incline me to withhold."
    --Emma Brockes

    Non-white immigrants to the USA should know they are expected to lie. That's the way the game's played.
    A non-white immigrant is expected to proclaim not only that one loves America, everything
    about America, but also that the United States is (by far) the greatest country in the world,
    approaching perfection in about every way (except that it's OK to gripe about high taxes).
    America is God's favorite (and uniquely blessed) country. And, of course, there's no racism.
    Every American has equal rights and opportunity in this country with liberty and justice for all.

    I know non-white immigrants who have said exactly what I described. They know the drill.
    The USA prefers to welcome people who are willing to parrot patriotic propaganda that
    they should know is false rather than people who are more honest and critical of the USA.
  3. Zugzwang
    08 Jun '07
    01 Sep '17 20:19

    "Communist party members may still be barred from US citizenship
    "As Donald Trump calls for ‘extreme vetting’ of Muslim immigrants, he has pointed
    to old measures to bar communists – which still echo in today’s rules."

    "Membership in the Communist party may still preclude would-be citizens from becoming naturalized in the US."

    "The applicant cannot become a citizen if they are a member of the Communist party or have been
    within the past 10 years, have advocated communism’s establishment in the US, have published or
    circulated “subversive” materials advocating communism, or are affiliated with any groups that do so."

    "There are a few exceptions which would allow a member of the Communist party to become
    a citizen despite their affiliation. The exceptions listed on the USCIS website include: if
    their membership was involuntary or they lacked “awareness of the nature or the aims of
    the organization”; if the membership was ended before the age of 16, or 10 years prior to
    applying for citizenship; or if the membership was used to get a job, food or other essentials."

    "As one blog pointed out, the continued existence of this restriction may disproportionately
    affect immigrants from China, where membership in the Communist party is popular."

    The USA never has barred people from becoming US citizens just for having been members of the NSDAP.
    Some 'Nazi war criminals' have become naturalized US citizens.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
    To the Left
    25 Jun '06
    01 Sep '17 23:18
    One of the leading mathematicians of the 20th century, Kurt Gödel is considered by many to have been the most sophisticated logical thinker the world has ever seen. His best known work, Gödel’s theorem, highlighted a fundamental inconsistency in the basic structure of mathematics. Of more interest to the general reader, however, is Gödel’s Loophole – which performs much the same trick for the Constitution of the United States: “He could show how in a perfectly legal manner it would be possible for somebody to become a dictator and set up a fascist regime”.

    Of course, many people worry that a fascist takeover is just around the corner, but it’s something Gödel had experienced at first hand. His native Austria was annexed by the Nazis in 1938, and the following year he fled to America. He got a job at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, where he befriended two other European refugees – the physicist Albert Einstein and the economist Oskar Morgenstern. They encouraged Gödel to apply for U.S. citizenship, and that’s when his study of the Constitution began in earnest. By the time he was ready to take his citizenship examination, in December 1947, he had discovered the “inner contradictions” that are now known as Gödel’s Loophole.

    It never seems to have occurred to Gödel that – whether he was right or wrong – he ought to keep his mouth shut about this particular point. As Morgenstern says (in the only first-hand account of Gödel’s Loophole):

    "I tried to persuade him that he should avoid bringing up such matters at the examination before the court in Trenton, and I also told Einstein about it: he was horrified that such an idea had occurred to Gödel, and he also told him he should not worry about these things nor discuss that matter. Many months went by and finally the date for the examination in Trenton came. […]

    "The examiner first asked Einstein and then me whether we thought Gödel would make a good citizen. We assured him that this would certainly be the case, that he was a distinguished man, etc.

    "And then he turned to Gödel and said, Now, Mr. Gödel, where do you come from?

    Gödel: Where I come from? Austria.

    The examiner: What kind of government did you have in Austria?

    Gödel: It was a republic, but the constitution was such that it finally was changed into a dictatorship.

    The examiner: Oh! This is very bad. This could not happen in this country.

    Gödel: Oh, yes, I can prove it.

    "So of all the possible questions, just that critical one was asked by the examiner. Einstein and I were horrified during this exchange; the examiner was intelligent enough to quickly quieten Gödel and broke off the examination at this point, greatly to our relief."
  5. Zugzwang
    08 Jun '07
    01 Sep '17 23:35
    A US government official told me that the USA has the greatest health care system in the world.
    He claimed that it's the most advanced, cost-efficient, humane, and inclusive of all health care systems.
    It was futile for me to attempt to cite any facts or figures to the contrary.

    I wondered what could be the mental and moral state of people who have to reiterate
    such lies all their lives and to keep convincing other people that they really believe them.
  6. Zugzwang
    08 Jun '07
    01 Sep '17 23:50
    An American university student (white woman) asked me why France celebrates its national day on July 14.
    She regarded it as bizarre because she assumed that France should celebrate it on July 4,
    the same as the USA does. As gently as I could, I explained that France and the USA are
    two different countries and one should not expect two different persons to have the same birthday.

    Some American students have asked me--apparently in all seriousness:
    "Do any countries beside us (the United States) have any history?"

    A black African academic told me that, in a lecture, he had to explain to his American
    students that Africa's not a single country; it's a continent with many countries.
    And most black Africans don't live in tree houses or spend much time being chased by wild animals.
    (His black American students seemed hardly any more informed than his white students about Africa.)
  7. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    31 Jan '04
    02 Sep '17 06:241 edit
    Are you seriously expected to say you love the US?


    I love outer-Mongolia.
    You know, like Yaks, snowballs and yurts.

    I hate outer-Mongolia, you know, like monstrously dangerous cows, it's cold and the room service was severly lacking.

    How the hell can anyone say they love a country? Do they mean the regime? The food? The sewer system?

    Or is it sexual love? You want to drape the flag over the country's back and shag it from behind like the banking system?

    Funnily enough, this would mean that America loves China: they're forever kissing ass over there.
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
    To the Left
    25 Jun '06
    02 Sep '17 09:54
    In June this year, the Ayyam gallery in Dubai exhibited a series of controversial oil paintings that caught the attention of the world. The ‘Vulnerability Series’, created by Syrian artist Abdalla Omari, depicts powerful world leaders in the most vulnerable states of life: as displaced refugees and other disenfranchised citizens.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    08 Aug '03
    02 Sep '17 10:14
    Originally posted by @duchess64

    "A judge ruled this veteran is a US citizen. Now he faces deportation to Mexico.
    The case of George Ybarra, currently in an Arizona detention center, has
    been criticized as a cruel and extraordinary application of immigration laws."

    "A decorated US mar ...[text shortened]... ge."

    Would George Ybarra be facing deportation under the same circumstances if he were white?
    If we're deporting Americans now, can we get Trump on the next bus out? Seriously.
  10. Zugzwang
    08 Jun '07
    02 Sep '17 20:54
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    If we're deporting Americans now, can we get Trump on the next bus out? Seriously.
    Deporting US citizens to Mexico is nothing new.

    "The Mexican Repatriation was a *mass deportation* of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans
    from the United States between 1929 and 1936.[1][2] Estimates of how many were
    repatriated range from 500,000 to 2,000,000,[3][4] of whom 60% were US-born citizens."

    The 'history troll' No1Marauder (who has some awareness of anti-black racism but
    evidently close to none about anti-Latino or anti-Asian racism in the USA) argued with
    me about this subject (of which he apparently had known nothing until I wrote about it),
    apparently attempting to deny that what happened was a 'deportation'.

    My primary source (which I don't have in front of me now) was this book:
    _Decade of Betrayal: Mexican Repatriation in the 1930s_
    by Francisco E. Balderrama and Raymond Rodríguez (University of New Mexico Press)
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