Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membervivify
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    22 Nov '18 06:431 edit
    About your identity thread, I just wanted to share some thoughts.

    You're asking why someone can't identify as a different race or different age if they can identify as a different gender from the sex they were born as. My take:

    Human qualities fall on a spectrum. With sexuality, humans can be straight, gay or bi. But it doesn't end there. Someone could be attracted to the same sex, but only romantically interested in hetero relationships, and vice-versa. People can also be asexual, having no interest in sex or romance at all.

    There's a whole spectrum of human sexuality ranging from asexual to those with sex addictions.

    The same applies to gender. Let's start with men. Men can be the rugged, masculine type all the way to nerdy and passive. Men can have any combination of masculine and anti-masculine traits. For example: large muscular football (gridiron) players, who after slamming their opponents to the ground for two hours can cry at winning a championship.

    There's an entire spectrum of men (and women) with respect to how masculine or feminine they are. Occasionally, a man or woman can fall into the part of the spectrum where s(he) much more closely identify with a gender opposite their sex. Sometimes, a person identifies with neither gender.

    Keeping the spectrum of human personalities in mind, it starts to become easier to understand why someone can identify more as one sex than another. This is more just a "feeling". It's deeper than.

    Lastly, keep in mind the spectrum of humans manifests physically as well. Some men are bigger and stronger than others, while some men are smaller and weaker. Some men are athletically inclined, others couldn't throw a ball to save their life. The same goes for women.

    The physical gradations can even blur the lines of what's considered one sex or another. Men are typically born with an xy chromosome; women are typically born with xx. But....

    https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask352

    Most people with a Y chromosome don't have a uterus and without one, there is no place for a baby to grow. No uterus, no pregnancy.

    So how is it possible for people to have both a Y chromosome and a uterus? One part of the story is that their Y chromosome lacks what it takes to make a male.

    What we do know is that every once in a while an XY person develops into a female. These individuals are females in almost every way, but they almost always lack working ovaries and a uterus. Which means that they can't get pregnant.


    I'm sure you've also heard of men born with female parts and vice-versa, or women like Caster Semenya, a woman with unusually high testosterone who has been barred from competing in some women's sporting events. Examples of different points in the male/female spectrum are quite numerous.

    Understanding the variety and complexity of the human condition, it can help with understanding why one sex would identify as the other.

    AS for why someone can't identify as a different age or different race, I'm sure you can see by not that they're not really comparable. How exactly should a 40 year old feel? How good or how bad you feel physically isn't the same thing as how old you feel. How "old" should an overweight 20 year old feel? 45? 50?

    How a person should "feel" at any given age are based merely on assumptions, while people can be born with more masculine or feminine traits. Society does play a role in reinforcing those traits some some degree. But if you're easily moved to tears (usually considered feminine) that's an objective, natural trait. IF you feel good or bad at thirty, that is usually just due to diet and exercise.

    I can say pretty much the same thing for race....but, there is evidence that race isn't always as straightforward as people make it seem. Sandra Laing was a black girl born to white parents. It was proven in court that certain genes can skip generations (like Sandra's dark skin) and manifest later. This is paired with the fact that many "whites" do indeed have black ancestry, which was a shock to the South Africans Ms Laing' courtroom. The first modern humans are said to have evolved in Africa, so it makes sense.

    So...could Rachael Dolezal indeed "feel" black? I don't know. Ethnicity, like gender, is also influenced by society.

    The main take away from this is hopefully that you'll understand being trans is more than just a feeling. It's deeper and more intrinsic than that. It's real part of a person's make up, and sometimes even their biology.
  2. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    22 Nov '18 07:58
    There's an entire spectrum of men (and women) with respect to how masculine or feminine they are. Occasionally, a man or woman can fall into the part of the spectrum where s(he) much more closely identify with a gender opposite their sex. Sometimes, a person identifies with neither gender.

    Keeping the spectrum of human personalities in mind, it starts to become easier to understand why someone can identify more as one sex than another. This is more just a "feeling". It's deeper than.

    Lastly, keep in mind the spectrum of humans manifests physically as well. Some men are bigger and stronger than others, while some men are smaller and weaker. Some men are athletically inclined, others couldn't throw a ball to save their life. The same goes for women.

    The physical gradations can even blur the lines of what's considered one sex or another. Men are typically born with an xy chromosome; women are typically born with xx. But....


    ... What if the gender binary is totally legit...

    ... And all of those other things are just sub-genders beneath the normal gender binary?

    But no, really, what if we were to say that there exists a 'hypermasculine' male gender and a 'less masculine' male gender, and suddenly someone now looks at their father who isn't so athletic and doesn't mind putting on an apron and cooking as a less desirable version of a man? What does this mean for men who are already a bit insecure about their masculinity to suddenly have people proposing that they interpret their own "gender" as fundamentally different from the gender that they aspire to be as a man?

    Putting gender on a spectrum poses a lot of fun, new identity problems, IMO.

    It's also kind of fun how, in order to even "deconstruct" gender, we are stuck with identifying collections of non-physical traits as even being masculine or feminine. We are literally affirming the binary when we are deconstructing it.

    ---

    You can't be a different race or age for the exact reason that you cannot actually claim to be a different gender or an alternative gender: these things are defined by biological realities. And even if one does transition to the opposite gender, one often takes upon themselves the new gender with the frontloaded description of themselves as transgender.
  3. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    22 Nov '18 08:09
    I’m sure I’m supposed to be rich.
  4. Standard membervivify
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    22 Nov '18 15:101 edit
    @philokalia said

    ... What if the gender binary is totally legit...

    ... And all of those other things are just sub-genders beneath the normal gender binary?

    But no, really, what if we were to say that there exists a 'hypermasculine' male gender and a 'less masculine' male gender, and suddenly someone now looks at their father who isn't so athletic and doesn't mind putting o ...[text shortened]... g masculine or feminine. We are literally affirming the binary when we are deconstructing it.
    You're making the mistake of confusing sex with gender. A sex binary exists; not so with gender.

    But since the qualities that define male and female can apply to all people on a spectrum, that makes it incomparable to gender or race. Age and race aren't personality traits, unlike how masculine or feminine someone is.
  5. Joined
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    22 Nov '18 15:15
    @vivify said
    About your identity thread, I just wanted to share some thoughts.

    You're asking why someone can't identify as a different race or different age if they can identify as a different gender from the sex they were born as. My take:

    Human qualities fall on a spectrum. With sexuality, humans can be straight, gay or bi. But it doesn't end there. Someone could be attracted t ...[text shortened]... more intrinsic than that. It's real part of a person's make up, and sometimes even their biology.
    Idiot!
  6. Standard membervivify
    rain
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    22 Nov '18 15:16
    An interesting question would be, did gender (not sex) exist during caveman times? Did early man ever feel confused about his/her gender? Or did this only happen as gender roles became more defined?
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    22 Nov '18 16:40
    @vivify said
    About your identity thread, I just wanted to share some thoughts.

    You're asking why someone can't identify as a different race or different age if they can identify as a different gender from the sex they were born as. My take:

    Human qualities fall on a spectrum. With sexuality, humans can be straight, gay or bi. But it doesn't end there. Someone could be attracted t ...[text shortened]... more intrinsic than that. It's real part of a person's make up, and sometimes even their biology.
    I don't have the time to respond to this as it deserves right now.
    Thank you for the time and effort you put in to sharing your thoughts.
    To be clear on just one point, a preference is not the same thing as changing a gender.
    I will come back to this, today is full of other things right now.

    For those that observe Thanksgiving, I hope you all have a good one.
  8. Joined
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    22 Nov '18 16:42
    @mott-the-hoople said
    Idiot!
    Please enlighten us.
    Oh yes, woman was created from a spare rib from the man.

    Now go sit in the corner and read your Bible. 😆
  9. Standard memberchaney3
    Bring it on.......
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    22 Nov '18 17:17
    @vivify said
    An interesting question would be, did gender (not sex) exist during caveman times? Did early man ever feel confused about his/her gender? Or did this only happen as gender roles became more defined?
    When a woman has desires for another woman, she doesn't lose her feminity. She is still sexy and feminine.

    If a man desires to be with another man, or a she-male, does he lose his masculinity? Unlike that of a woman.
  10. Joined
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    22 Nov '18 20:41
    @shavixmir said
    I’m sure I’m supposed to be rich.
    Well then, not giving you a million dollars would be bigoted of society.
  11. Joined
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    22 Nov '18 21:181 edit
    @vivify said
    About your identity thread, I just wanted to share some thoughts.

    You're asking why someone can't identify as a different race or different age if they can identify as a different gender from the sex they were born as. My take:

    Human qualities fall on a spectrum. With sexuality, humans can be straight, gay or bi. But it doesn't end there. Someone could be attracted t ...[text shortened]... more intrinsic than that. It's real part of a person's make up, and sometimes even their biology.
    I can say pretty much the same thing for race....but, there is evidence that race isn't always as straightforward as people make it seem. Sandra Laing was a black girl born to white parents. It was proven in court that certain genes can skip generations (like Sandra's dark skin) and manifest later. This is paired with the fact that many "whites" do indeed have black ancestry, which was a shock to the South Africans Ms Laing' courtroom. The first modern humans are said to have evolved in Africa, so it makes sense.

    The case of Sandra Laing is an interesting one. Part of doing the DNA test that I did was being able to see the profiles of my closest relatives and their DNA results. When I got my results I probably looked through about 100 profiles of my closest relatives. Among my British and American relatives, almost all were between 99% and 100% European. However, amongst my Afrikaans relatives, almost all were between 90 and 95% European. I'd say the average was about 92%. People have forgotten that there was a lot of mixing that happened in South Africa in previous centuries. It's not always apparent from people's appearance whether they are 100% European or not.
  12. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    22 Nov '18 21:46
    @vivify said
    You're making the mistake of confusing sex with gender. A sex binary exists; not so with gender.

    But since the qualities that define male and female can apply to all people on a spectrum, that makes it incomparable to gender or race. Age and race aren't personality traits, unlike how masculine or feminine someone is.
    Why does gender exist, then?

    Biological sex exists. Why does an artificial layer above it have to exist for us to understand what is reducible to biological sex?

    Especially when the bulk of everything that has to do with gender is already being rote reduced to traits of biological sex.
  13. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
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    23 Nov '18 00:43
    @ashiitaka said
    [b]I can say pretty much the same thing for race....It's not always apparent from people's appearance whether they are 100% European or not.
    A DNA study of local people living near Hadrian's Wall showed a surprising
    amount of African ancestry. The obvious answer being that Roman troops
    from Africa were stationed there and mingled with the natives.
  14. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    23 Nov '18 01:071 edit
    @wolfgang59 said
    A DNA study of local people living near Hadrian's Wall showed a surprising
    amount of African ancestry. The obvious answer being that Roman troops
    from Africa were stationed there and mingled with the natives.
    Source?

    And I am curious what they would mean by "African ancestry."

    Obviously, if such a trace existed, it would be quite interesting as it would mean that there was some sustained effort to keep sending Africans to Hadrian's wall, generation after generation. Why such a practice would exist, IDk, but that would seem to be absolutely necessary for there to be a lasing genetic impact.

    I could, however, find no evidence after a quick search for there being some African admixture for people who live along the wall.

    Indeed, while searching for information I found this article that contradicts this:

    I am not interested in going through the whole story (you can read a summary here), nor am I interested in litigating whether or not it’s “fair” to portray a children’s cartoon character with dark skin, but one point that has been raised is well worth addressing here at The Past and the Curious. Genetics studies have been held up triumphantly as a refutation to the “fuzzy” humanities sort of approach. This argument goes: there’s little or no evidence of African DNA lineages (even northern Africans, who would be predicted to more closely resemble Europeans due to a long history of gene flow through the Middle East) in contemporary British populations, so therefore historians are wrong.

    If there were Africans in Roman Britain, why isn’t there a genetic legacy from these individuals among present-day inhabitants of Britain? It’s a fair question, and one which has several potential answers:


    The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/aug/09/if-africans-were-in-roman-britain-why-dont-we-see-their-dna-today-mary-beard


    ... And what is kind of funny is the article is trying to actually argue that there were a bunch of Africans in Britain, even black Africans.

    So, IDK, lol.

    What is also funny about all this is that it is kind of arguing for something that we all know is absurd because no one would have looked at Britain in the 19th century and observed that this is a place with a lot of African heritage.
  15. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    23 Nov '18 01:55
    @philokalia said
    Source?
    Not the internet.
    Magazine article.
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