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Debates Forum

  1. 05 Apr '17 19:54 / 4 edits
    Former mayor of London Ken Livingstone is once again suspended from the UK Labour Party. His crime? He made comments on a BBC Radio London show that have allegedly brought the Labour party into disrepute. What fiendish thing did he say? He stated that in 1932 Hitler was supporting Zionism. How did he qualify the statement? He states that early in 1932 Hilter had suggested that Jews should be moved to Israel and Hitler was therefore supporting Zionism. It was only later according to Mr. Livingstone when he 'went mad', that he decided to kill them systematically.

    How factual was Mr, Livingstones statement? Well according to Netanyahu Mr. Livingstone is absolutely correct.

    In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' -

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.681525

    If we take it that Ken Livingstones statement is historically accurate ( and I cannot say whether it is or is not) then why can he not publicly say so? It appears to me to me that once again there are certain subjects where one cannot challenge the narrative without being labelled with various vacuous epithets and subjected to vilification in Ken Livingstones case by the mainstream media and the The UK Labour party. I am not defending what Ken Livingstone said but its self evident that if you dare to challenge the official narrative you instantly become a holocaust denier, an anti-semite, a neo-nazi, a disgrace to be shunned by all decent and moral people, a receptacle for scorn and derision.

    What is it about these subjects that renders them so sacrosanct, so above reproach, to be unchallenged and unchallengeable? Only the fool hardy and those who care naught for public opinion may be intrepid enough to do so.
  2. Standard member checkbaiter
    By God's Grace
    05 Apr '17 20:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Former mayor of London Ken Livingstone is once again suspended from the UK Labour Party. His crime? He made comments on a BBC Radio London show that have allegedly brought the Labour party into disrepute. What fiendish thing did he say? He stated that in 1932 Hitler was supporting Zionism. How did he qualify the statement? He states that early in 1 ...[text shortened]... nly the fool hardy and those who care naught for public opinion may be intrepid enough to do so.
    In this new PC world you have to be careful what you say. I know, scary when you sit back and look at it. It seems like some "force" is driving this thing.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Apr '17 20:56
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    In this new PC world you have to be careful what you say. I know, scary when you sit back and look at it. It seems like some "force" is driving this thing.
    http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/many-british-mps-working-israel/

    "Once, no one would have hesitated to call British politicians acting in the interests of a foreign power, and very possibly taking financial benefits for doing so, “traitors”. And yet, as Al Jazeera’s secretly filmed footage shows, Israeli spies like Shai Masot can readily meet and conspire with a Tory minister’s much-trusted aide to discuss how best to “take down” the deputy foreign minister, Alan Duncan, over his criticisms of Israel’s illegal settlements in the occupied territories. Maria Strizzolo, education minister Robert Halfon’s assistant, suggests engineering a “little scandal” to damage Duncan.

    Masot and Israel’s intelligence services cannot infuence British foreign policy through the opposition Labour party, but that doesn’t prevent them from also taking a keen interest in Labour MPs. Masot is filmed talking to Labour Friends of Israel’s chair, Joan Ryan, about “lots of money” – more than £1 million – he has received from the Israeli government to send yet another batch of Labour MPs on an all-expenses-paid trip to Israel, where they will be wined and dined, and primed by top officials to adopt even more extreme pro-Israel positions. LFI is known for sending the largest proportion of MPs to Israel on these kinds of trips.

    Does that have an effect on British domestic politics. You bet it does! Israel isn’t a charity.

    A large number of those who have been making Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn’s life a misery belong to Labour Friends of Israel. They are the same MPs who have been talking up an “anti-semitism crisis” in the Labour party – based on zero tangible evidence – since Corbyn became party leader. Were they following the dictates of their conscience? Did they really fear an anti-semitism plague had suddenly beset their party? Or were they playing deeply cynical politics to oust a leader who supports justice for the Palestinian people and is considered by Israel’s rightwing government, which has no interest in making peace with the Palestinians, to be bad news for Israel?"


    We know perfectly well why people paid by Israel build up hysteria over alleged "anti-semitism" on the part of Israel's critics. What is less clear is why such an experiened politician as Ken Livingstone refuses to take this into account and self-censor more than he does.

    My personal opinion is that he was wrong about Hitler and foolish to make the clams he did make. Hitler did not support Zionism. He accepted an agreement to facilitate the emigration of German Jews. That is not the same. A more accurate statement is that certain Zionists participated with the Nazis in elaborating theories of race, certain Zionists actively sought Nazi support for their battle against the British in Palestine, and certain Zionists saw the Nazi programme as an opportunity to induce more Jews to move to Palestine. The appeal of Nazism to certain but not all Zionists was greater and more evident that any reciprocal appeal of Zionism to Nazis. But this is a subtle argument which I do not believe Livngstone ought to be working out in a public forum where it is impossible to keep control over the subtleties of the argument. He was always doomed to be misrepresented and he is too experienced not to take this into account.

    So I am annoyed that Livingstone is distracting from Labour's serious work through careless and avoidable stupidity. That does not mean I concede to the Israeli state the right to disable a British politician through their paid agents in the British parliament and the British Labour Party.

    e.g. http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/tom-watson-mp-supporter-of-israeli.html
  4. 05 Apr '17 21:22 / 1 edit
    This post is of historical interest only. It's unrelated to Ken Livingstone or Hitler.

    During the First World War, Germany was the European power most sympathetic to Zionism.
    It's false that Germany always has been exceptionally anti-Semitic or even anti-Zionist.

    For further reading:
    _Germany, Turkey, and Zionism 1897-1918_ by Isaiah Friedman

    "For the most part, studies on Zionism as an international movement have centered on Great Britain.
    Professor Friedman has focused on a new point of view. Using unpublished official German and
    Zionist records and contemporary diaries, memoirs, and other private sources, he proves
    conclusively that in spite of the opposition of her Turkish ally, the German government
    emerged as the foremost protector of the Zionist cause during World War I. Germany was the
    first European power to view Zionist aspirations with favor. Friedman argues that had it not been
    for her persistent intervention with the Turkish government, the Jewish community in Palestine
    would not have survived.

    Apart from propaganda value, Germany discovered in Zionism an instrument for solving
    the Jewish problem in Eastern Europe after the war and a means for strengthening its
    own influence in the Middle East. Moreover, by maintaining good relations with German
    officials and the press, the German Zionists inadvertently created an atmosphere of
    competition among the European Powers, and thus indirectly accelerated the publication
    of Balfour's Declaration."
    --Amazon website
  5. 06 Apr '17 07:24
    Originally posted by finnegan
    http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/many-british-mps-working-israel/

    [i]"Once, no one would have hesitated to call British politicians acting in the interests of a foreign power, and very possibly taking financial benefits for doing so, “traitors”. And yet, as Al Jazeera’s secretly filmed footage shows, Israeli spies like Shai Masot can readily meet ...[text shortened]... our Party.

    e.g. http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/tom-watson-mp-supporter-of-israeli.html
    Its naught but pure skulduggery. Why are these people not being exposed and vilified in national media? A truly sick and corrupt system.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    06 Apr '17 08:58
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Its naught but pure skulduggery. Why are these people not being exposed and vilified in national media? A truly sick and corrupt system.
    Our media is selective in what it is prepared to expose and acknowledge. There is no attempt in the Guardian to balance their reporting of Watson's and New Labour's synthetic hysteria over spurious Anti Semitism claims with the easily accessible evidence that Watson and other MPs have enjoyed expenses paid, supervised trips to Israel, spoken out in support of the apartheid state and accepted payment from Israel for their troubles. As for the recent detailed expose of the role played by the Israeli embassy in subverting British democracy, that is not referenced even to disagree with it.

    It would at a minimum be helpful to stop reporting the opinions of "British Jews" as though this were a monolithic bloc of nodding donkeys in complete agreement on these matters. They are not. I imagine there are some matters on which "British Jews" can agree consistently, but the apartheid Israeli state is not one of them.
  7. 06 Apr '17 09:51 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Our media is selective in what it is prepared to expose and acknowledge. There is no attempt in the Guardian to balance their reporting of Watson's and New Labour's synthetic hysteria over spurious Anti Semitism claims with the easily accessible evidence that Watson and other MPs have enjoyed expenses paid, supervised trips to Israel, spoken out in support ...[text shortened]... which "British Jews" can agree consistently, but the apartheid Israeli state is not one of them.
    The Labour party is being eaten alive by festering maggots from the inside out. Its like a ragged vestige from what it used to be. Its almost as if we are being propelled backwards through time to an epoch before the London dockworkers strikes. I expect a chimney sweep at my door anytime soon singing chim chim che-ree with a skinny soot blackened child on tow. I have an ominous sense of foreboding Finnegan.
  8. 06 Apr '17 10:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    The Labour party is being eaten alive by festering maggots from the inside out. Its like a ragged vestige from what it used to be. Its almost as if we are being propelled backwards through time to an epoch before the London dockworkers strikes. I expect a chimney sweep at my door anytime soon singing chim chim che-ree with a skinny soot blackened child on tow. I have an ominous sense of foreboding Finnegan.
    Jeremy Corbyn exploded and told a journalist to stop recording when asked why the Labour party is set to be annihilated on may 4th...

    Someone's getting tetchy.

    The whole anti semitism debacle is another example of weak leadership. He is reluctant to fire a crony no matter the damage to the party.
  9. 06 Apr '17 10:49
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    The Labour party is being eaten alive by festering maggots from the inside out. Its like a ragged vestige from what it used to be. Its almost as if we are being propelled backwards through time to an epoch before the London dockworkers strikes. I expect a chimney sweep at my door anytime soon singing chim chim che-ree with a skinny soot blackened child on tow. I have an ominous sense of foreboding Finnegan.
    When the Tories are polling at 30% in SCOTLAND, you know there is a problem with the labour party...
  10. 06 Apr '17 11:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Jeremy Corbyn exploded and told a journalist to stop recording when asked why the Labour party is set to be annihilated on may 4th...

    Someone's getting tetchy.

    The whole anti semitism debacle is another example of weak leadership. He is reluctant to fire a crony no matter the damage to the party.
    So do you approve as Finnegan has admirably highlighted of the Israeli governments covert attempts to influence British democracy? Where is your condemnation of these nefarious Tory friends of yours who were involved? As for Ken Livingstone he has said or done nothing that I deem worthy of censure and its not a reflection of him but of our society which is completely intolerant to any kind of criticism of Israel. All you need to do is mention it and out comes the holocaust card. Why is vastly more disconcerting than the dilapidated state of the Labour party.
  11. 06 Apr '17 11:05
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    When the Tories are polling at 30% in SCOTLAND, you know there is a problem with the labour party...
    Don't worry Nicola has it covered, you noobs don't stand a snowballs chance.
  12. 06 Apr '17 11:44
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    So do you approve as Finnegan has admirably highlighted of the Israeli governments covert attempts to influence British democracy? Where is your condemnation of these nefarious Tory friends of yours who were involved? As for Ken Livingstone he has said or done nothing that I deem worthy of censure and its not a reflection of him but of our society w ...[text shortened]... holocaust card. Why is vastly more disconcerting than the dilapidated state of the Labour party.
    Conspiracy theories...

    What Ken Livingstone said wasn't about Israel, it was about Hitler being a zionist, for your information.
  13. 06 Apr '17 11:44
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Don't worry Nicola has it covered, you noobs don't stand a snowballs chance.
    Come the elections you might be forced to eat those words.
  14. 06 Apr '17 11:45
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    So do you approve as Finnegan has admirably highlighted of the Israeli governments covert attempts to influence British democracy? Where is your condemnation of these nefarious Tory friends of yours who were involved? As for Ken Livingstone he has said or done nothing that I deem worthy of censure and its not a reflection of him but of our society w ...[text shortened]... holocaust card. Why is vastly more disconcerting than the dilapidated state of the Labour party.
    Seems you missed the memo on what Ken Livingstone was talking about here.
  15. 06 Apr '17 14:18
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Conspiracy theories...

    What Ken Livingstone said wasn't about Israel, it was about Hitler being a zionist, for your information.
    Clearly you are in denial Tory boy.