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  1. Standard member vivify
    rain
    02 May '15 02:42 / 3 edits
    Most of you are well aware that there is a history of mistreatment from cops toward blacks, spanning many decades. This history stemmed from the malicious treatments blacks first received by being enslaved, only to be released in a nation with Jim Crow laws. One of the most serious consequences of this, historically, was racist people who were police officers, abusing their power to abuse blacks.

    After many decades of this type of abuse, including being hosed just for marching peacefully, race relations between blacks and whites very, very gradually started to improve. However, a side-effect of the horrendous mistreatment and decades of denial of equal rights to blacks, resulted in a generation of blacks that resorted to crime, as many systemically impoverished people around the world do.

    Stay with me.

    Over time, the criminal mindset started become an acceptable way of life. This crime culture, heavily bolstered by the hip-hop culture, gave blacks (especially black youth) something that they very easily and readily identified with.

    More time passes. The "thug life" culture gets not only more popular and romanticized, but even fashionable. At the same time that this is happening, race relations still continues to improve. Racist cops still exist, however. Infamous examples include people like Mark Fuhrman ( a racist detective who used to wear blackface). This is where things get complicated.

    There are many Mark Fuhrmans still mixed in with the decent cop who simply want to do their jobs. At the same time, blacks, due to the harsh systemic mistreatment toward them, have high rates of crime. As a result, the line between racism from cops, and decent officers doing their jobs (like cops who use force justly) starts to seem blurred. Instances of racism are unclear. Are cops just racist, or are blacks simply criminals? Unfortunately, a little of both is true.

    More time passes. Race relations improve further. We have a black president. Neil Degrasse Tyson is the most popular scientist among the general public. Oprah is the arguably the most popular talk show host of all time, at least among among women. Jay Z (a black rapper) has as many number one singles as the Beatles, his black wife, Beyonce, is frequently hailed by popular U.S. magazines like People, as the most "beautiful woman in the world". The best athletes are black (Jordan, Ali, Michael Johnson, etc.). At the same time, a culture of crime, because of the aforementioned reasons, persists in black culture. This causes an understandable disdain from those who feel blacks are making excuses, given how successful and intelligent blacks have proven they can be.

    So...we are now at a point where, where we can legitimately argue that blacks are causing most of their own problems. However, racism still isn't dead (the KKK still exists, Donald Sterling, etc). As a result, whenever cop does something that's even possibly, because of the long and terrible history evil toward blacks, especially from cops, there's understandably a very strong reaction from the public against the cop, often resulting in rushes to judgement, and automatically deeming any cop even accused of wrong as guilty.

    Baltimore: wounds from cases like Treyvon Martin (a youth minding his own business, who was followed by and then killed by a *white* man, and wasn't even charged until the public protested, and was still acquitted). Not long after, cases like Eric Garner (a man who was choked to death with a banned hold, even though he showed zero signs of violence, even though he clearly told the cops that he couldn't breathe, which resulted in the officer being acquitted, despite the videotaped evidence). Many still believe that Michael Brown's killer was unjustly acquitted.

    Keeping in mind how soon each of these cases happened after each, merely months (sometimes only weeks) apart, blacks feel like they're getting slapped in the face.

    Baltimore probably wouldn't be happening right now if not for cases like Eric Garner, Martin, and Michael Slager (who shot a fleeing black man named Walter Scott in the back). Maybe some protests, but I doubt emotions would be this high if not the seemingly endless succession of *possible* brutality cases. Some are cases of cops overstepping their authority (Garner) and some may or may not be, like Michael Brown. The problem, is that because of the history toward blacks, the line between who's doing their job correctly and who's not, seems blurred. Through the lens of a people that has experienced oppression, their vision of what's actually happening may be tainted.

    So that's where we are now.
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    02 May '15 02:58 / 6 edits
    (Part two)

    Keeping in mind what I've just posted, let me expound a bit on blacks and cops. Let's tackle a few famous cases: Rodney King, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Michael Slager, and the most recent one Baltimore.

    Some of these are tragedies and a clear case of wrong (Garner). Some are ambiguous (Brown). Whatever the case, each of them have something in common: all of the black men involved were in the process of doing something illegal.

    King was drunk, resisting arrest, and mouthing off at cops; I think he may have been a bit violent as well, but I don't remember for sure. He also had a history of arrests.

    Michael Brown was a scumbag, who was caught on camera robbing a store in a violent manner, shortly before the interaction with the cops. He also had a history of arrests.

    Eric Garner, though unjustly treated, was illegally selling cigarettes, as well as refusing arrest. He also had a history of arrests.

    Michael Slager, the cop who shot Walter Scott in the back, was recorded as being polite and respectful when Scott was first pulled over. Even when it became clear that Scott was trying to B.S. the cop about certain legalities, Slager was still calm and respectful. Slager, was afraid of being caught doing something illegal, ran from the cop (another illegal move) and there's audio of the Slager and Scott struggling. The end result was tragic and wrong on the cop's part; but Slager did heavily contribute to it. Slager also has a history of arrests.

    The young man in Baltimore: ran because of his illegal activity, and also had many arrests.


    Despite the wrong that some cops may still do toward blacks, it doesn't excuse how blacks act. It has to be addressed, that yes, in this day and age, many blacks are largely at fault for how cops treat them. Many black youths still embrace the "thug" culture of hip-hop, and the "street" image. Degrasse-Tyson isn't cool, nor is he a role-model to black youth; however, Jay Z, the former crack dealer who was arrested for stabbing a man, even after he had been rich and famous for years, is what many young blacks want to aspire to be. This is the problem. Until black leaders (as well as white leaders) start to focus on this troubling fact of black youth, there will be no change.

    More importantly, it's a community and cultural issue. People like Degrasse-Tsyon need to be venerated more. Of course, this isn't just specifically a "black" thing: scientists and intellects aren't "cool" with young people of any race. Still, black parents (parents ESPECIALLY) and black communities need to do everything they can to get the focus of black youths away from crap, and toward something genuinely uplifting. Higher standards must set in all aspects of black life, from what they listen to, to how they interact with other, to how they speak and carry themselves, to how they approach education. To do that, the parents must do the same for themselves.
  3. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    02 May '15 03:51
    Originally posted by vivify
    Most of you are well aware that there is a history of mistreatment from cops toward blacks, spanning many decades. This history stemmed from the malicious treatments blacks first received by being enslaved, only to be released in a nation with Jim Crow laws. One of the most serious consequences of this, historically, was racist people who were police office ...[text shortened]... sion, their vision of what's actually happening may be tainted.

    So that's where we are now.
    Mark Fuhrman was a police detective that just wanted to do his job too. The fact that he made some racist statements in the past which he was ashamed to admit does not prove he did anything wrong in his investigation of O.J. Simpson. The defense attorneys used that as a way to discredit his testimony to the jury. There was never any proof he ever took any racist actions no matter how many times he might have made perceived racist statements. I believe Mark Fuhrman has been unfairly demonized to win a court case that let a murderer of two people go free.
  4. Standard member vivify
    rain
    02 May '15 04:00 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Mark Fuhrman was a police detective that just wanted to do his job too. The fact that he made some racist statements in the past which he was ashamed to admit does not prove he did anything wrong in his investigation of O.J. Simpson. The defense attorneys used that as a way to discredit his testimony to the jury. There was never any proof he ever took any ...[text shortened]... hrman has been unfairly demonized to win a court case that let a murderer of two people go free.
    That could be true, but it's not the point. The point is that the presence of law enforcement that racist ranking high enough to manipulate a case if he wanted to, makes it even harder to trust given the racist historicity of the judicial system toward blacks.

    Put it this way: if conservatives feel that Obama possibly being Muslim is a concern for how he'll run his office, why can't someone like Fuhrman be a legitimate concern for how that department may have run things?
  5. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    02 May '15 04:06 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    That could be true, but it's not the point. The point is that the presence of law enforcement that racist ranking high enough to manipulate a case if he wanted to, makes it even harder to trust given the racist historicity of the judicial system toward blacks.
    I understand that, but it is a paranoid attitude that could lead to injustice, when the goal is to get true justice. It has a tendency to make the criminals look like innocent victims.
  6. 02 May '15 08:45
    Originally posted by vivify
    Despite the wrong that some cops may still do toward blacks, it doesn't excuse how blacks act. It has to be addressed, that yes, in this day and age, many blacks are largely at fault for how cops treat them.
    That it outright racism.
    Suppose, one of my black Zambian friends goes to America. Suppose they are walking along a street and get mistreated by a cop (in a way they would never have been mistreated if they were white). How would they be at fault for that treatment?
    In almost all the cases you cited, the cops in question were not aware of the criminal records of the people they mistreated. Secondly, some of the crimes you mention had already been through the courts and appropriate punishments handed out. Former criminals do not automatically deserve mistreatment by cops, and people who have the same skin colour as many known criminals do not deserve to be mistreated.
    In many of the cases you cited, even known criminals do not deserve to be treated they way they were treated.

    I think the biggest thing you are missing in your posts is that most black experience discrimination every day of their lives in the US. You appear to think the backlash is mostly because of a few rare cases of cops behaving badly. Although those are the triggers, and the fact that violent response to one case appearing to get results does cause people to try the same the next time it happens, the truth is that the real bitterness behind the responses is a built up anger at the systemic racism that they experience every day.
    In every instance that there has been violence following such incidents, it has become apparent that:
    1. There is a black population policed largely by white racist cops.
    2. There is institutional racism in the police force.
  7. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    02 May '15 11:18
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That it outright racism.
    Suppose, one of my black Zambian friends goes to America. Suppose they are walking along a street and get mistreated by a cop (in a way they would never have been mistreated if they were white). How would they be at fault for that treatment?
    In almost all the cases you cited, the cops in question were not aware of the criminal r ...[text shortened]... ion policed largely by white racist cops.
    2. There is institutional racism in the police force.
    There is some question of that in the Gray case given that 3 of the 6 officers charged were black (including the driver of the van who was the only one charged with murder).

    A legitimate issue is the type of policing now thought proper and allowed by court decisions giving the police the power to stop and detain people merely for being on the street in a high crime area and/or running from the police even when there is no indication that they are engaged in criminal activity. Freddie Gray should have been simply left alone as he was violating no law but the type of "broken windows" police strategy relies on racist assumptions that encourage police to harass individuals of particular races ("stop and frisk".
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    02 May '15 15:04
    From the Autobiography of Malcolm X:
    http://al-rasid.com/shared_uploads/The.Autobiography.of.MalcolmX.pdf

    The bartenders would let me know which among the regular customers were mostly "fronts," and
    which really had something going; which were really in the underworld, with downtown police or
    political connections; which really handled some money, and which were making it from day to
    day; which were the real gamblers, and which had just hit a little luck; and which ones never to
    run afoul of in any way.
    The latter were extremely well known about Harlem, and they were feared and respected. It was
    known that if upset, they would break open your head and think nothing of it. These were oldtimers,
    not to be confused with the various hotheaded, wild, young hustlers out trying to make a
    name for themselves for being crazy with a pistol trigger or a knife. The old heads that I'm talking
    about were such as "Black Sammy," "Bub" Hewlett, "King" Padmore and "West Indian Archie."
    Most of these tough ones had worked as strongarm men for Dutch Schultz back when he
    muscled into the Harlem numbers industry after white gangsters had awakened to the fortunes
    being made in what they had previously considered "n* pennies"; and the numbers game was
    referred to by the white racketeers as "n* pool."
    Those tough Negroes' heyday had been before the big 1931 Seabury Investigation that started
    Dutch Schultz on the way out, until his career ended with his 1934 assassination. I heard stories
    of how they had "persuaded" people with lead pipes, wet cement, baseball bats, brass knuckles,
    fists, feet, and blackjacks.
    Nearly every one of them had done some time, and had come back on the scene, and since had
    worked as top runners for the biggest bankers who specialized in large bettors.
    There seemed to be an understanding that these Negroes and the tough blackcops never
    clashed; I guess both knew that someone would die. They had some bad black cops in Harlem,
    too. The Four Horsemen that worked Sugar Hill-I remember the worst one had freckles-there was
    a tough quartet. The biggest, blackest, worst cop of them all in Harlem was the West Indian,
    Brisbane. Negroes crossed the street to avoid him when he walked his 125th Street and Seventh
    Avenue beat. When I was in prison, someone brought me a story that Brisbane had been shot to
    death by a scared, nervous young kid who hadn't been up from the South long enough to realize
    how bad Brisbane was.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    02 May '15 15:12 / 3 edits
    The Bloods have been known to infiltrate the police and use their status to suppress rival black and Hispanic gangs.

    Of course the Irish, Italians, white Hispanics and Anglos do the same thing.
  10. Standard member vivify
    rain
    02 May '15 15:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That it outright racism.
    Suppose, one of my black Zambian friends goes to America. Suppose they are walking along a street and get mistreated by a cop (in a way they would never have been mistreated if they were white). How would they be at fault for that treatment?
    You seem to be reading what you want to read.

    I didn't say those blacks are at fault for the mistreatment they receive; I clearly said it was wrong. I said those blacks are at fault for the problems they have with police, due to their criminal activity. It's like someone who keeps throwing eggs at the houses of their neighbors; if that person gets physically assaulted for doing that, the neighbors are wrong, and the egg-thrower doesn't deserve it. However, that person does have fault that contributed to what happened to him.

    All of the blacks I mentioned either committed a crime that same day they encountered police, or committed a crime earlier that caused to resist arrest in some way. This is where the fault lies; in the choices of those black men.

    Notice that many of these cases aren't about blacks just minding their own business, while some racist jerk decides to give them a hard time. All of the ones I mentioned, as well as most similar cases that get reported, involve someone whose current or past criminal activity directly resulted in their interaction with cops that had a tragic result.
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    02 May '15 15:52
    Originally posted by vivify
    You seem to be reading what you want to read.

    I didn't say those blacks are at fault for the mistreatment they receive; I clearly said it was wrong. I said those blacks are at fault for the problems they have with police, due to their criminal activity. It's like someone who keeps throwing eggs at the houses of their neighbors; if that person gets physic ...[text shortened]... to resist arrest in some way. This is where the fault lies; in the choices of those black men.
    No, the fault for the use of excessive force by the police rests with the police not with the people they kill when they use the excessive force.

    Freddie Gray was doing nothing wrong and was illegally arrested anyway.
  12. Standard member vivify
    rain
    02 May '15 15:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    No, the fault for the use of excessive force by the police rests with the police not with the people they kill when they use the excessive force.

    Freddie Gray was doing nothing wrong and was illegally arrested anyway.
    Freddie Gray ran because of previous illegal deeds that he didn't want discovered.

    The cops were indeed wrong for what they did; but Gray's (previous) illegal actions resulted in setting that whole event into motion.
  13. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    02 May '15 15:59 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Freddie Gray ran because of previous illegal deeds that he didn't want discovered.

    The cops were indeed wrong for what they did; but Gray's (previous) illegal actions resulted in setting that whole event into motion.
    BS. The police had no awareness of anything he had done before; they just saw a young black guy wanting to avoid them and decided to harass him. Then they arrested him on a bogus charge. Then they killed him.

    Your excuses for this are disgusting. It's just "blame the victim"; no matter what his prior criminal record was he was doing nothing wrong and should have been left alone.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    02 May '15 16:03
    And illegally selling cigarettes shouldn't result in a police administered death sentence (which the perps got away with scot free).
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    02 May '15 16:03
    Originally posted by vivify
    Freddie Gray ran because of previous illegal deeds that he didn't want discovered.

    The cops were indeed wrong for what they did; but Gray's (previous) illegal actions resulted in setting that whole event into motion.
    I've been a pothead for 20 years and the only time the police arrested me for it is when they pulled me over for a stop sign violation and I told them I had an eighth just to find out what they would do.