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  1. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 15:492 edits
    Recently I basically stated as much on another forum and was asked to defend it.

    I’ll state a bare bones defense and await comments.

    I am speaking of a rather rigorous version of libertarianism I’ll label “L”. Typically, followers of L envision a society of equally gifted independent thinkers who live up to the ideals of L in their everyday dealings. Their enemies are manipulators of public opinion who cater to the baser instincts of the unenlightened masses who they appease with bread and circuses. Mythic champions of L form together into mini-societies that in some cases go to live together in some place where they can defend themselves when needed. In other cases they form resistance units within the corrupt society. In either case their cause is noble and pure. And it must be kept that way. Realistically, there are demonstrable deviations from the program that present an existential threat to its followers, which is understandable, as its followers present such a threat to the corrupt system.

    Some sort of enforcement must occur when these threats become dangerous, which they inevitably do. People must be watched for signs of corruption.

    So you know where this line of reasoning leads us. A surveillance state, on guard against the ever present forces of evil. Isn’t that the way of the world? It certainly is not a return to Eden. I’ll leave it there.
  2. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 16:405 edits
    Originally posted by @js357
    Recently I basically stated as much on another forum and was asked to defend it.

    I’ll state a bare bones defense and await comments.

    I am speaking of a rather rigorous version of libertarianism I’ll label “L”. Typically, followers of L envision a society of equally gifted independent thinkers who live up to the ideals of L in their everyday dealings. T ...[text shortened]... vil. Isn’t that the way of the world? It certainly is not a return to Eden. I’ll leave it there.
    Ever watch Lord of the Rings? Whoever puts on that ring of power, it changes them.

    Case in point are the Founding Fathers. They fought a bloody revolution against an oppressive dictator only to then pass the Alien and Sedition Acts that forbad people from speaking out against the colonial government the Founders created. Luckily, Jefferson repealed most of it, but not before using it for his own means. Then FDR used what was left to enslave innocent Japanese Americans during WW 2.

    Interestingly, this critique of those who are speaking out against government sounds eerily similar to the Alien and Sedition Acts themselves.

    IF libertarians were to make a difference, they would reduce the centralization of government so that the ring holds less and less power over them. Playing the game of changing terms for those in power from GOP to DNC to liberal to socialist to Progressive, etc., interests me little. That is why I'm in support of the Article V movement to reduce the power of the US Federal government.

    Both parties are all about surveillance. They are all about such legislation as the Patriot Act and NDAA.
  3. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 17:158 edits
    For the record, Trump does not impress me in the least. After all, he has no moral compass. How can he have a moral compass coming from the heart of New York? He says he has not even asked God for forgiveness for anything cuz that's how secular Progs roll. They don't believe in actual sin unless you do something they don't like. For example, sinners are only those who don't recycle or think badly about such things as gay sex.

    Predictions:

    1. He will sign DACA into law without the border wall, or a wall that is incomplete.
    2. His tax plan will further cause inflation to spike, which will eat at any gains in taxes people enjoy with his new tax plan.
    3. Dims will take back government because Trump has galvanized the left wing because.....well....he is Trump.

    Then the economy dies again and everyone blames Trump. At that point some glorious figure must rescue us all with more government intervention as they increase their control on us further.

    George Soros runs the US, not Trump. Trump is there for the illusion of a power shift, the illusion of choice.

    Liberalism is what leads to totalitarianism, which is why the Nazi regime were socialists.
  4. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 17:23
    Originally posted by @js357
    Recently I basically stated as much on another forum and was asked to defend it.

    I’ll state a bare bones defense and await comments.

    I am speaking of a rather rigorous version of libertarianism I’ll label “L”. Typically, followers of L envision a society of equally gifted independent thinkers who live up to the ideals of L in their everyday dealings. T ...[text shortened]... vil. Isn’t that the way of the world? It certainly is not a return to Eden. I’ll leave it there.
    The USA started out as a libertarian society. When did the USA become a totalitarian state?
  5. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 17:261 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    The USA started out as a libertarian society. When did the USA become a totalitarian state?
    I'd say at the turn of the 20th century or Progressive era.

    Once they got their Federal income tax and created their own bank, the sky was the limit in terms of control and destroying Federalism and creating a centralized state.

    After all, all tyrants are collectivists, none are libertarian.
  6. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 17:38
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I'd say at the turn of the 20th century or Progressive era.

    Once they got their Federal income tax and created their own bank, the sky was the limit in terms of control and destroying Federalism and creating a centralized state.

    After all, all tyrants are collectivists, none are libertarian.
    Right. It was when repubs and dems controlled the country.

    Libertarianism does not lead to totalitarianism. Total myth!
  7. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 17:502 edits
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    The USA started out as a libertarian society. When did the USA become a totalitarian state?
    It was a society of, by and for white landed English-speaking men whose liberty was its stated aim. So far, its ideology is not pure and uniform enough to move very far up the scale toward totalitarianism although some people here will disagree.
  8. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 18:03
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Ever watch Lord of the Rings? Whoever puts on that ring of power, it changes them.

    Case in point are the Founding Fathers. They fought a bloody revolution against an oppressive dictator only to then pass the Alien and Sedition Acts that forbad people from speaking out against the colonial government the Founders created. Luckily, Jefferson repealed mos ...[text shortened]... es are all about surveillance. They are all about such legislation as the Patriot Act and NDAA.
    Other ideologies; political and religious, are vulnerable to becoming totalitarian regimes, not just libertarianism.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    27 Jan '18 18:17
    Originally posted by @js357
    Recently I basically stated as much on another forum and was asked to defend it.

    I’ll state a bare bones defense and await comments.

    I am speaking of a rather rigorous version of libertarianism I’ll label “L”. Typically, followers of L envision a society of equally gifted independent thinkers who live up to the ideals of L in their everyday dealings. T ...[text shortened]... vil. Isn’t that the way of the world? It certainly is not a return to Eden. I’ll leave it there.
    Where exactly has such a scenario played out?

    Governments which became totalitarian (the US isn't one because it lets the People elect its Senators no matter how much whodey screeches to the contrary) have hardly needed the creation of Galt's Gulches to do so.
  10. Standard membershavixmir
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    27 Jan '18 18:51
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Ever watch Lord of the Rings? Whoever puts on that ring of power, it changes them.

    Case in point are the Founding Fathers. They fought a bloody revolution against an oppressive dictator only to then pass the Alien and Sedition Acts that forbad people from speaking out against the colonial government the Founders created. Luckily, Jefferson repealed mos ...[text shortened]... es are all about surveillance. They are all about such legislation as the Patriot Act and NDAA.
    So, you agree with more centralized surveilance, to undermine a centralized government?

    Or did I not understand you?
  11. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    27 Jan '18 19:161 edit
    Originally posted by @js357
    Recently I basically stated as much on another forum and was asked to defend it.

    I’ll state a bare bones defense and await comments.

    I am speaking of a rather rigorous version of libertarianism I’ll label “L”. Typically, followers of L envision a society of equally gifted independent thinkers who live up to the ideals of L in their everyday dealings. T ...[text shortened]... vil. Isn’t that the way of the world? It certainly is not a return to Eden. I’ll leave it there.
    This "L" is different from the libertarianism I am familiar with.

    As I understand it, libertarians believe that personal liberty should be maximized, meaning that the government does not intervene, or regulate or outlaw things, without a very good reason for doing so. They are fans of the old aphorism, "The best government is that which governs least."
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 Jan '18 20:38
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Ever watch Lord of the Rings? Whoever puts on that ring of power, it changes them.

    Case in point are the Founding Fathers. They fought a bloody revolution against an oppressive dictator only to then pass the Alien and Sedition Acts that forbad people from speaking out against the colonial government the Founders created. Luckily, Jefferson repealed mos ...[text shortened]... es are all about surveillance. They are all about such legislation as the Patriot Act and NDAA.
    The Article 5 'movement' is not about reducing the government's power. It's about shifting who the Constitution protects. We already saw step one when the SC declared corporations to be 'people'. This was both a stopgap and a wedge to try to garner for corporations the protections the People have always enjoyed. Then we saw another step when certain groups tried to insert language into the Constitution to take away certain rights of certain People. Thankfully, this failed because everyone knows the purpose of the Constitution is to secure rights, not to take them away.

    And now here comes the endgame of all the voter suppression and the gerrymandering and the electing of Republican governors to at least two-thirds of the states. They seek to force a Constitutional Congress, in order to re-write the Constitution from We the People, into We the Corporations. They now seek not to reduce government, but to tear it down and re-make it in their own image. If this happens, then we'll finally see the fulfillment of Reagan's warning that "Government IS the problem." They seek to reduce US government into a "zero-sum" game where the People lose their guaranteed protections and those protections are given instead to the corporations. This is only the worst of many possible dystopian futures for the US.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 Jan '18 20:45
    Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
    This "L" is different from the libertarianism I am familiar with.

    As I understand it, libertarians believe that personal liberty should be maximized, meaning that the government does not intervene, or regulate or outlaw things, without a very good reason for doing so. They are fans of the old aphorism, "The best government is that which governs least."
    Oh, you're right that US Libertarianism is not a "real Mexican poncho". It's just a "Sears poncho".

    (Apologies to Frank Zappa.)
  14. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 21:48
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    The Article 5 'movement' is not about reducing the government's power. It's about shifting who the Constitution protects. We already saw step one when the SC declared corporations to be 'people'. This was both a stopgap and a wedge to try to garner for corporations the protections the People have always enjoyed. Then we saw another step when certain gr ...[text shortened]... tead to the corporations. This is only the worst of many possible dystopian futures for the US.
    You don't want corporations to have rights but you do want illegals to have rights? Doesn't sound very patriotic to me...jussaying
  15. Joined
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    27 Jan '18 22:46
    Originally posted by @js357
    Other ideologies; political and religious, are vulnerable to becoming totalitarian regimes, not just libertarianism.
    Libertarianism is based upon the premise of individual freedom. The opposite of that is collectivism, or group rule.

    I'm not sure how one could focus on both since they seem contradictory. Any historic examples of a libertarian tyranny?
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