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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    25 Jun '10 23:08
    Even though there was some hope of a better future for the people in Gaza with the reports of the loosening of the blockade I expressed some doubts about the contents of this reporting:

    1 - The report of the blockade loosening was only made in English. The Hebrew version of the press release had no mention of any loosening whatsoever.
    2 - Even if this loosening was to to be made it wasn't good enough for the people in Gaza. The people of Gaza are in a deep humanitarian crisis and the crumbles that Israel would allow to get in would only be an infinitesimal part of what is needed right now.
    3 - One has also to take into account the flux of things that gets in in Gaza under border control. It is extremely low and short. Thus even if a bigger number of items are allowed in, it doesn't mean that people will necessarily benefit from them. Besides a bigger number of items it is also needed a bigger time window and a more efficient way to get things in.
    4 - The blockade isn't just about what gets in, the blockade is also about what gets out. And Israel doesn't allow much to get out. That way Palestinian self-determination and self-sufficiency are greatly hindered.

    Don't get me wrong. I think that the fact that Israel feels the need to lie and has to present some half-hearted measures to pretend that they actually care about Palestinians as a big victory. One victory that certainly was possible only with the actions of that great group of people that entered the flotilla because they cared. But it certainly is no way enough. In a way it also is a victory for Israel: the argument is now about loosening the blockade when the argument should be about ending the unlawful blockade and people should never forget that.

    Now it is time for the Gaza people to face yet another hardship: as of today the only power plant operating in Gaza is shut down.

    Without money to buy the needed fuel for the plan to operate (even with this loosening of the blockade less fuel is allowed in into Gaza) Gaza will now have to survive in the literal cold and in literal the dark.

    http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/53338
    http://rain.org.za/amira-hass-not-by-cement-alone/
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/amira-hass-easing-of-siege-may-have-negligible-effect-on-gaza-1.297552?localLinksEnabled=false
    http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/israel-makes-small-change-to-gaza-blockade-brands-lebanese-womens-aid-mission-hizbullah.html and references therein
    http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/limited-israeli-easing-of-gaza-blockade-greeted-with-dismay.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0618/1224272792116.html
    http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2010/06/gaza-power-plant-to-stop-functioning.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7198798.stm
  2. 25 Jun '10 23:32
    maybe they'll elect a more tractable party next time.
  3. 26 Jun '10 00:09
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/munich.html

    No solution to this age old problem, neither side will blink.
  4. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    26 Jun '10 00:11
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/munich.html

    No solution to this age old problem, neither side will blink.
    By age old problem you obviously mean problem as old as zionism.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    26 Jun '10 04:01 / 1 edit
  6. 26 Jun '10 16:55
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    maybe they'll elect a more tractable party next time.
    yes because like we all know, elections aren't about what the interests of the electorate are but that of the people living in the neighboring countries.
  7. 26 Jun '10 18:57
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    yes because like we all know, elections aren't about what the interests of the electorate are but that of the people living in the neighboring countries.
    if the Gazans like being under a blockade and at constant risk of invasion, they can continue to vote Hamas in.

    viva los martirs!
  8. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    27 Jun '10 05:08
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    if the Gazans like being under a blockade and at constant risk of invasion, they can continue to vote Hamas in.

    viva los martirs!
    I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that the existence of Hamas makes any difference at all to the Israelis.

    The PLO was labeled a terrorist organization until the Madrid conference in 1991. In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist and renounced violence. What difference has that made? None. Hamas may one day be accepted by the international community, too. (Note that recognizing Israel came AFTER the PLO's de-listing as a terrorist organization.)

    Either way, Israel's aggressive policy has not wavered since 1948 or before. They are actually proud of that fact. That's why no matter what politics the Palestinians follow -- the only way to peace is an international blockade of Israel -- nothing in or out (particularly oil) -- until Israel agrees to a solution. That solution could be single Muslim state with Jews living in it (as Hamas proposes). Or a Jewish State and a Muslim State of about equal size (as Fatah says it would accept).

    I don't really think it matters to the rest of us -- as long as SOME solution is implemented. America is tired of being a target because of this nonsense.
  9. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    27 Jun '10 11:06
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    That solution could be single Muslim state with Jews living in it (as Hamas proposes).
    Hamas proposal is for a two state solution with decent compensations to the Palestinians that were ethnically cleansed.
  10. 27 Jun '10 18:54
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that the existence of Hamas makes any difference at all to the Israelis.

    The PLO was labeled a terrorist organization until the Madrid conference in 1991. In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist and renounced violence. What difference has that made? None. Hamas may one day be accepted by the ...[text shortened]... SOME solution is implemented. America is tired of being a target because of this nonsense.
    Hamas' solution for Israel is a "single Muslim state with Jews living in it" and you think Israel should withhold their aggression? have you been drinking the Kool-Aid?
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    27 Jun '10 19:01
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that the existence of Hamas makes any difference at all to the Israelis.

    The PLO was labeled a terrorist organization until the Madrid conference in 1991. In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist and renounced violence. What difference has that made? None.
    What are you talking about? Of course it made a difference. Israel negotiated and signed multiple agreements with the PLO representation.

    How exactly has it made "no difference"?
  12. 27 Jun '10 19:20
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Hamas' solution for Israel is a "single Muslim state with Jews living in it" and you think Israel should withhold their aggression? have you been drinking the Kool-Aid?
    Israel's restraint in not annexing Gaza after the last invasion seems stupid in retrospect.
  13. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    27 Jun '10 20:40
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Hamas' solution for Israel is a "single Muslim state with Jews living in it" and you think Israel should withhold their aggression? have you been drinking the Kool-Aid?
    Palestine has been a Muslim state with Jews living in it since the 630 AD (except for 150 years of Christian rule). There was no point in changing that tradition -- and certainly not the way it was done, importing Poles and Russians.
  14. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    27 Jun '10 20:44
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    Israel's restraint in not annexing Gaza after the last invasion seems stupid in retrospect.
    Annex it and do what with the Palestinians? Give them the vote? Fat chance. They are not Jewish.

    You don't understand persecuting people because of their religion because you come from a country that was FOUNDED TO OPPOSE that principle.

    Israelis are religious bigots, and yet you support them.

    You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
  15. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    27 Jun '10 21:07
    Originally posted by sh76
    What are you talking about? Of course it made a difference. Israel negotiated and signed multiple agreements with the PLO representation.

    How exactly has it made "no difference"?
    They violated Oslo before the ink was dry.