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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    12 Sep '15 15:10
    Jeremy Corbyn wins the UK Labour leadership contest!!

    Well, it's not everyday the Left get a reason to celebrate.
    Good for him.

    I'm sure even right-wingers will agree that UK politics might finally get interesting again: a real choice instead of two sides of the same coin.

    Go on Jeremy! Give those capitalist swines hell!
  2. 12 Sep '15 16:29
    Now the question is just who will replace him when Labour gets stomped in the next election. Cameron and Farage will be celebrating, I bet.
  3. Standard member Amaurote
    No Name Maddox
    12 Sep '15 16:51 / 1 edit
    Great result, not just for Corbyn, but also for Sadiq Khan and Tom Watson, whose elections are equally important. Corbyn was the outstanding candidate, and his speech earlier today was as an example of his sheer moral authority, but I had some concerns over UND, immigration and territorial integrity, so I ended up voting for Burnham and leaving Corbyn as my second preference. I was delighted to see Cooper finish in third place, since while she's impressive personally (she's probably the brightest of the four), she's been an utterly negative candidate - at least Liz Kendall offered a positive, if misguided, account of the Blairite wing of the party, which is now so depleted it looks more like a groupuscule.

    Don't know whether anyone caught it, but for the most illuminating interview of today was Owen Jones' challenge to Dan Hodges (the Blairite and pro-Cooper cheerleader) what his positive alternatives to Corbynism were. Hodges responded, without a hint of conscious irony, that they were

    1. Not leaving NATO.
    2. Not leaving the EU.
    3. Not introducing a People's Quantitative Easing.

    This is echoed by much of the Blairite opinion online, and indicates that the Blairites and Brownites are a largely negative, antequated force, which is ironic since New Labour did at one point (1994-2001) offer a discrete, credible and consistent ideology - not one I ever liked, but it was at least positive. Now they're nothing, nullity, shadow politics. We've been crying out for good centre-left and left leaders for years, and now, it seems, we have one.
  4. 12 Sep '15 18:23
    Originally posted by Amaurote
    Great result, not just for Corbyn, but also for Sadiq Khan and Tom Watson, whose elections are equally important. Corbyn was the outstanding candidate, and his speech earlier today was as an example of his sheer moral authority, but I had some concerns over UND, immigration and territorial integrity, so I ended up voting for Burnham and leaving Corbyn as my ...[text shortened]... been crying out for good centre-left and left leaders for years, and now, it seems, we have one.
    And now Labour hasn't a cat in hell's chance of getting back in power .
  5. Standard member Amaurote
    No Name Maddox
    12 Sep '15 18:38
    Originally posted by phil3000
    And now Labour hasn't a cat in hell's chance of getting back in power .
    That's a moot point, though: our best leaders have been centre-left (Wilson, Attlee) and our worst have been both right-wing (Callaghan, Blair, Brown, MacDonald) and left-wing (Lansbury, Foot, although both of those men were very able in their own way), and there is more than one path to power - in 1945, '64 and '74 we won on radical manifestos. Corbyn's domestic policies are actually very appealing to many people in their own terms, but I'd agree with you that he's a sitting target on some issues if he ever runs out of momentum - which I sincerely hope he doesn't. Even if he does, he's unquestionably a good thing in terms of party democracy - whether you're right-wing or left-wing, this semi-open primary has been a good innovation, and Miliband deserves credit rather than blame for installing the registered supporter system as a mechanism for electing the leader.
  6. 12 Sep '15 20:06
    Originally posted by Amaurote
    That's a moot point, though: our best leaders have been centre-left (Wilson, Attlee) and our worst have been both right-wing (Callaghan, Blair, Brown, MacDonald) and left-wing (Lansbury, Foot, although both of those men were very able in their own way), and there is more than one path to power - in 1945, '64 and '74 we won on radical manifestos. Corbyn's do ...[text shortened]... han blame for installing the registered supporter system as a mechanism for electing the leader.
    I think in today's world with the free movement of people in the EU and the impending crisis with migrants/refugee's etc , anything to "the left " will frighten voter's into the arms of the more right -wing parties . Nigel Farage and the Tory party in particular must be doing the conga around the hall's of Westminster .
    I can see the dust being shaken off Michael Foot's donkey jacket at any time now .

  7. Standard member Amaurote
    No Name Maddox
    12 Sep '15 21:06 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by phil3000
    I think in today's world with the free movement of people in the EU and the impending crisis with migrants/refugee's etc , anything to "the left " will frighten voter's into the arms of the more right -wing parties . Nigel Farage and the Tory party in particular must be doing the conga around the hall's of Westminster .
    I can see the dust being shaken off Michael Foot's donkey jacket at any time now .

    The Tories are clearly celebrating tonight, since their goal is to portray an essentially decent man as a terrorist, but it could be hubris, since we're living in a period of permanent crisis and there is some space and time for an anti-austerity party to flourish. Arguably it's better for Labour to be that party than be out-flanked by other parties opportunistically (the SNP, Plaid Cymru) adopting an anti-austerity agenda, particularly with the election nearly half a decade away.

    I'm not so sure you're right about UKIP, though, except in its southern fastnesses (more Essex than the Shires): I live in a North-Eastern constituency where Old Labour and UKIP elide all the time, and while Corbyn may strike some bum notes on issues like the Falklands, UND and immigration, he's playing all the right music on issues like a national investment bank, rent controls and renationalization, and I know quite a few recent converts to UKIP who hated Ed Miliband (unjustly, in my opinion) and admired Nigel Farage but think Corbyn and his provisional economic policies are fantastic.

    Incidentally, he also has a pretty decent theme tune: https://youtu.be/vGlFsC9PMz8
  8. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    12 Sep '15 23:38
    Originally posted by phil3000
    I think in today's world with the free movement of people in the EU and the impending crisis with migrants/refugee's etc , anything to "the left " will frighten voter's into the arms of the more right -wing parties . Nigel Farage and the Tory party in particular must be doing the conga around the hall's of Westminster .
    I can see the dust being shaken off Michael Foot's donkey jacket at any time now .

    In the absence of attractive policies the Tories overtly seek to promote fear. That was exactly the case with the Scottish referendum and Cameron has already been heard saying the same approach will be used in the Europe referendum. Fear and fear and fear are his strategy for getting votes.
  9. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    13 Sep '15 00:06
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Jeremy Corbyn wins the UK Labour leadership contest!!

    Well, it's not everyday the Left get a reason to celebrate.
    Good for him.

    I'm sure even right-wingers will agree that UK politics might finally get interesting again: a real choice instead of two sides of the same coin.

    Go on Jeremy! Give those capitalist swines hell!
    UK to be under Sharia Law in 25 years.

    YouTube
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    13 Sep '15 00:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by phil3000
    And now Labour hasn't a cat in hell's chance of getting back in power .
    Getting lectures from New Labour voices about electability is just hilarious. Labour has seen its most powerful base - the Scottish electorate - collapse and they lost out there to a nationalist party promoting nuclear disarmament, positive egagement with Europe and a raft of socialist policies. They are about as defunct in Scottish politics as the Tories and that is pretty defunct - a dead parrot of a party. The Blairite Progress Group, funded among others by Lord Sainsbury who withdrew his significant funding from the Labour Party when Milliband defeated his brother for the privilige of being a chocolate teapot, gave us Liz Kendall as the candidate they thought would sweep the board and they assured us they had a real understanding of the electorate. Well, she trailed in as the joke candidate with 4.5% of the vote in the first round and that says all we want to hear about electability from that shower of closet Tories.

    Corbyn has been quietly winning his seat in Parliament in every election from 1983. He was a reluctant candidate, bowing to requests for a Left candidate, and he did not in any way manufacture his message to win votes. Quite the contrary. He strolled around the country saying what he has said for decades and nothing more - and people started to flock to his meetings, starting with about 350 people in Birkenhead (already more than the other candidates could attract!) and culminating in thousands queuing around the block, climbing to see him through the windows of packed halls. By the end he had more volunteers working (unpaid) to support his campaign than Liz Kendall had votes! If the volunteers in the phone banks and on the streets had failed to attract a single extra vote, they still had enough votes among the volunteers to defeat the Blairite champion. But of course, they found over a quarter of a million voters and blasted his nonentity rivals into well earned insignificance.

    In 2015, with Labour in a mess and failing to communicate with the electorate, they still drew over 30% of the vote nationally and some 9.3 million votes to the Tories' 11.3 million. That is the baseline to work from. Corbyn has nearly five years in which to achieve two things: establish the credibility of his policies and demonstrate (by effective opposition from a pincipled platform for a change) the sheer evil of what the Tories are doing to this country. He is not a negative campaigner and I predict he will allow the Tories to show themselves up for what they are, without restraint from the coalition partners of the last parliament, and he will instead continue to demonstrate that there is in fact an alternative to austerity, racism and fear and it is a sight more attractive.

    After 30 years we have our Labour Party back. The Left is back in the game.
  11. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    13 Sep '15 00:21
    Originally posted by Amaurote
    Great result, not just for Corbyn, but also for Sadiq Khan and Tom Watson, whose elections are equally important. Corbyn was the outstanding candidate, and his speech earlier today was as an example of his sheer moral authority, but I had some concerns over UND, immigration and territorial integrity, so I ended up voting for Burnham and leaving Corbyn as my ...[text shortened]... been crying out for good centre-left and left leaders for years, and now, it seems, we have one.
    I ended up voting for Burnham and leaving Corbyn as my second preference
    Interesting to know how many second preference votes Corbyn had like your's. On top of his 251,000 (nearly 60% ) of first preference votes.

    What he stands for:
    Ending austerity
    Protecting workers' rights
    Blocking welfare cuts
    Scrapping tuition fees
    Creating a National Education Service (like the NHS for healthcare)
    Ensuring the NHS is completely publicly run
    Renationalising railways and utilities
    Abolishing Trident
    Withdrawing from Nato
    Introducing rent controls in unaffordable areas
    Investing more in the arts
    "I don't do personal, I don't do reaction, I don't do abuse. Life is too short and it devalues the political process. I think we should try and enhance the democratic life of this country, not reduce it to that level"

    And I got that from the Telegraph!
  12. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    13 Sep '15 05:40
    Obviously the tories will be acting like they love this; they want folk to think of the Labour party as incompetent and unvotable.
    They don't actually like it though.

    If Corbyn offers a real alternative, they're scared as hell of a Scotland-like wipe-out happening in the North of England as well.
    It may be fine to be the largest party, but if the whole of your support is less than 25% of the region, you are in deep do-do's.
  13. 13 Sep '15 16:06
    Originally posted by finnegan
    In the absence of attractive policies the Tories overtly seek to promote fear. That was exactly the case with the Scottish referendum and Cameron has already been heard saying the same approach will be used in the Europe referendum. Fear and fear and fear are his strategy for getting votes.
    If the Tories want to promote fear they have plenty of ammunition .
    To dig the dirt on Mr Corbyn isn't going to be very hard to do ,
    Here's a few for starters ...
    1....Anti Monarchy
    2....Anti Falklands
    3...Expressing sympathy for the I.R.A
    4....Baking the right of Iraqi insurgents to target British troops.
    5....Defending Putin ,IS and Palestine terrorists.
  14. 13 Sep '15 16:38
    Originally posted by phil3000
    If the Tories want to promote fear they have plenty of ammunition .
    To dig the dirt on Mr Corbyn isn't going to be very hard to do ,
    Here's a few for starters ...
    1....Anti Monarchy
    2....Anti Falklands
    3...Expressing sympathy for the I.R.A
    4....Baking the right of Iraqi insurgents to target British troops.
    5....Defending Putin ,IS and Palestine terrorists.
    Let's consider the part on that list that's actually a Corbyn position. What's so bad about being anti-monarchy?
  15. 13 Sep '15 17:56
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Let's consider the part on that list that's actually a Corbyn position. What's so bad about being anti-monarchy?
    Being anti-monarchy can help you lose you an election that's one bad thing you could chalk up for a labour leader .