Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
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    25 Mar '15 14:02
    Originally posted by normbenign
    There is a simple, almost too simple reason why a "two State solution" will not work. Right of return. Right of return combined with a sizeable Palestinian State would spell the end of Israel, even if temporarily violent attacks on Israel were suspended (for how long?) As I pointed out in another thread, Gaza is a failed experiment in giving up land for ...[text shortened]... s. Such a warning would not be necessary here, and would not be racist if the warning were true.
    Some sort of compensation package would have to substitute for the "right of return" according to most people familiar with the process. Obviously, Israel wouldn't accept the right of all Palestinians to return to places within Israel's post-negotiation border any more than the Arab countries would accept the right of return of the Jews the expelled between 1948 and the present.

    The Gaza withdrawal was unilateral and probably never had a realistic chance of establishing a real peace in Gaza. That's why a negotiation two-state solution is the only real option.

    ===The reality is that Palestinians living in current Israel, are far better off than those living under Syrian, Saudi, Lebanese or Egyptian rule.===

    True, but that doesn't in itself solve the problem of the Palestinians outside of Israel's borders not having self-determination.

    ===Actually, one can simply read the charters of Hezbolla, and Hamas to see what the Palestinian agenda is===

    I agree, but agendas can be changed and compromises can be made.

    What other good choice is there anyway?
  2. Germany
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    25 Mar '15 17:38
    Originally posted by sh76

    What other good choice is there anyway?
    Chest-thumping and finger-pointing, of course! Much better than wussy peace negotiations.
  3. Joined
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    25 Mar '15 17:54
    Originally posted by normbenign
    There is a simple, almost too simple reason why a "two State solution" will not work. Right of return. Right of return combined with a sizeable Palestinian State would spell the end of Israel, even if temporarily violent attacks on Israel were suspended (for how long?) As I pointed out in another thread, Gaza is a failed experiment in giving up land for ...[text shortened]... s. Such a warning would not be necessary here, and would not be racist if the warning were true.
    "It is common knowledge in America that the Democratic party is dedicated to getting blacks to vote in numbers, sometimes multiple times. Such a warning would not be necessary here, and would not be racist if the warning were true."

    The Republican Party tries hard to disenfranchise students, the poor, the elderly and those of color. The Democratic Party is dedicated to getting blacks to vote BUT NEVER HAS THERE BEEN ANY EVIDENCE THAT ANYONE IN THE PARTY SUPPORTS OR TRIES TO GET ANYONE TO VOTE MORE THAN ONCE. Shame on you for spreading such lies.
  4. Zugzwang
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    25 Mar '15 18:16
    Originally posted by sh76 to Normbenign
    Some sort of compensation package would have to substitute for the "right of return" according to most people familiar with the process. Obviously, Israel wouldn't accept the right of all Palestinians to return to places within Israel's post-negotiation border any more than the Arab countries would accept the right of return of the Jews the expell ...[text shortened]... t agendas can be changed and compromises can be made.

    What other good choice is there anyway?
    Much nonsense passes without criticism (except perhaps by me) in this
    forum because of the overwhelming historical ignorance among its readers.

    Regardless of disingenuous Zionist arguments, there's far from an exact
    comparison between the Palestinian refugees expelled by force by Israel
    and the (fewer) Jews who left their native Arab countries to go Israel.
    Contrary to many often reiterated Zionist lies, the Palestinians fled--involuntarily--
    out of understandable fears for their lives (the Zionist massacre of the Arab
    village of Deir Yassin being one infamous example). The Palestinians did
    *not* become refugees in Lebanon, for instance, because they thought
    their lives would improve by going there. And international law has no
    provision for depriving refugees from returning to their homes after a war.

    In contrast, the situations of Jews in Arab societies was more complicated.
    Traditionally, Jews were generally better treated as a minority there than
    they were in Christian Europe. Avi Shlaim, an Israeli Jewish historian, has
    said that his Jewish parents were 'very nostalgic' about their lives in Iraq
    and the Jewish minority there did not have any particular problems until the
    the rise of Zionism began to poison relations between the Arabs and Jews.

    Of course, the Zionists did *not want Jews to stay* in their native Arab societies.
    The Zionists wanted all Jews there to leave and 'come home' to Israel.
    (So it seems disingenuous for Zionists today to *complain* about Jews
    leaving Arab societies for Israel.) The Zionists did their utmost through
    propaganda to persuade Jews to leave Arab societies to 'return' to Israel.
    When that failed in some cases, Israeli agents did whatever they could to
    incite hostility between Arabs and Jews, provoking (often successfully)
    Arab regimes to act more oppressively against their Jewish minorities, thus
    impelling more Jews to leave for Israel. So the Zionists share responsibility
    with the Arab regimes for Jewish emigration from Arab societies to Israel.

    To sum up, Zionism was motivated to create or incite more hostility between
    Arabs and Jews in Arab societies in order to induce those Jews to leave for Israel.
    In contrast--contrary to an often reiterated Zionist lie about Arab radio
    broadcasts allegedly encouraging Palestinians to leave in 1948--Arab states
    did *not* encourage Palestinians to become refugees, adding to the burdens
    of those states. Today Zionism would strongly discourage any Israeli Jews
    from returning to their ancestral homes in Arab societies. (Zionism does
    *not* want Jews leaving Israel.) In contrast, despite decades of oppression,
    the determination of Palestinian refugees to return to Palestine evidently
    remains about as strong as it was in 1948.
  5. The Catbird's Seat
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    26 Mar '15 00:02
    Originally posted by finnegan
    In so far as apartheid in the West Bank appears preferable to reasonable people, ...

    Obviously, unreasonable people like myself think Palestinians have human rights which the Israelis are trampling over and it is hard to comprehend why the USA finds it appropriate to fund their aggression so generously, not only with direct military and financial support but also by bribing their neighbours to comply.
    In spite of your hyperbole (apartheid), Palestinians in Israel are generally doing better than in neighboring Arab States.
  6. The Catbird's Seat
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    26 Mar '15 00:09
    Originally posted by sh76
    Some sort of compensation package would have to substitute for the "right of return" according to most people familiar with the process. Obviously, Israel wouldn't accept the right of all Palestinians to return to places within Israel's post-negotiation border any more than the Arab countries would accept the right of return of the Jews the expelled between 194 ...[text shortened]... t agendas can be changed and compromises can be made.

    What other good choice is there anyway?
    You are a well intentioned person for supporting the notion of a "two State solution", despite the obvious problems, one of them being that the Palestinian side doesn't want it. When the other side just wants the last Jew dead, where is the room for negotiation?

    I'm afraid that two State negotiations have about the same chances of success as the Gaza withdrawal.

    On the issue of self determination, for the sake of KN and Fin we could establish a Palestinian homeland in Ireland, and another in Finland. It would make about as much sense as an Israeli homeland surrounded by bitter enemies.
  7. Standard membersh76
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    26 Mar '15 12:391 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    You are a well intentioned person for supporting the notion of a "two State solution", despite the obvious problems, one of them being that the Palestinian side doesn't want it. When the other side just wants the last Jew dead, where is the room for negotiation?

    I'm afraid that two State negotiations have about the same chances of success as the Gaza ...[text shortened]... Finland. It would make about as much sense as an Israeli homeland surrounded by bitter enemies.
    ===You are a well intentioned person for supporting the notion of a "two State solution", despite the obvious problems, one of them being that the Palestinian side doesn't want it.===

    Thank you, but I don't think that most Palestinians are intent on having every last Jew killed. I certainly think that this is the goal of most of the Hamas leadership, but common people are more alike between societies than they are different. Common people want peace and prosperity for their families and want the ability to protect what's theirs and pursue their dreams. Brainwashed though many are by the cancer of religious extremism, I am confident that most people in all societies would want to settle on something that gives them peace, freedom and a greater level of prosperity.

    Maybe I'm naive. I don't know. But the many experiences I've had with Israelis and the few experiences I've had dealing with Palestinians have made me believe that the vast majority of both would gladly settle for whatever gives them the best chance at peace and freedom.
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    26 Mar '15 15:451 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    In spite of your hyperbole (apartheid), Palestinians in Israel are generally doing better than in neighboring Arab States.
    ... but the apartheid regime - which is well documented and not at all hyperbole - applies primarily to the occupied West Bank, you dolt.

    As for Palestinians in refugee camps in neighbouring countries, including those controlled by Israel in Gaza which is one big refugee camp, they are stateless and oppressed, excluded from the societies that have been obliged to shelter them. Without a right of return, to which they are entitled in international law, their condition is indeed dreadful. Do you care?
  9. The Catbird's Seat
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    26 Mar '15 15:59
    Originally posted by sh76
    ===You are a well intentioned person for supporting the notion of a "two State solution", despite the obvious problems, one of them being that the Palestinian side doesn't want it.===

    Thank you, but I don't think that most Palestinians are intent on having every last Jew killed. I certainly think that this is the goal of most of the Hamas leadership, but com ...[text shortened]... jority of both would gladly settle for whatever gives them the best chance at peace and freedom.
    I believe your faith in human nature, and the will of the majority of ordinary people is justified. Unfortunately, it is the leadership that must change and that is to me doubtful. What I remember is the promise of the deal brokered by the Clinton administration, which on the surface was approved, but was almost immediately trashed by Yassar Arrafat,

    As a leader of the Israeli people, Netanyahu has to deal with the leadership of terrorist organizations, and foreign States which have historically been hostile to Israel, and have broken every agreement brokered, and who after military defeat have rearmed and re-attacked. His suspicions are justified, and he would be irresponsible to just trust the Palestinian leadership or Iran. His stance mirrors Reagan's of the Soviets during the 80s, and is entirely understandable.
  10. The Catbird's Seat
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    26 Mar '15 16:01
    Originally posted by finnegan
    ... but the apartheid regime - which is well documented and not at all hyperbole - applies primarily to the occupied West Bank, you dolt.

    As for Palestinians in refugee camps in neighbouring countries, including those controlled by Israel in Gaza which is one big refugee camp, they are stateless and oppressed, excluded from the societies that have been ...[text shortened]... o which they are entitled in international law, their condition is indeed dreadful. Do you care?
    Yes, I care, but I care also for innocent Israelis who have to dodge rockets and bombs, and live with fear of buses and pizza shops being blown up by Palestinian terrorists. Do you care about that?
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
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    27 Mar '15 00:46
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Yes, I care, but I care also for innocent Israelis who have to dodge rockets and bombs, and live with fear of buses and pizza shops being blown up by Palestinian terrorists. Do you care about that?
    Of course I do and the question is how to work for peace in a country lead by a racist war monger.
  12. Zugzwang
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    27 Mar '15 02:10
    Originally posted by finnegan to Normbenign
    Of course I do and the question is how to work for peace in a country lead by a racist war monger.
    If most Israeli citizens were unhappy about being 'led by a racist warmonger'
    (Benjamin Netanyahu), then they would not have recently reelected him.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Mar '15 13:28
    Originally posted by normbenign
    There is a simple, almost too simple reason why a "two State solution" will not work. Right of return. Right of return combined with a sizeable Palestinian State would spell the end of Israel, even if temporarily violent attacks on Israel were suspended (for how long?) As I pointed out in another thread, Gaza is a failed experiment in giving up land for ...[text shortened]... s. Such a warning would not be necessary here, and would not be racist if the warning were true.
    The reality is far different from your unsupported, blasé claims:

    But putting this aside for a moment, is it even true that Palestinian Arabs are better off than other Arabs? In some ways, yes. In many ways, no. It is true, for example, that there is more protection for speech and media than in many highly repressive Arab countries. But Palestinians are massively underrepresented in political institutions relative to other Arab countries with parliaments or democratic local governments (Arab parties hold at present only 14 out of 120 seats in the Knesset despite comprising over 20% of the population). They hold fewer civil service jobs (only 6.1% of such jobs despite court rulings that this number must be increased). This discrimination extends to the private sector as well. Fewer Arab women in Israel work, due to discrimination, than even women in Saudi Arabia, that bastion of medievally strict gender segregation, and Oman. The labor force participate rate of Arab women in Israel is less than half what it is in Morocco or Mauritania.

    Arab towns in Israel have worse public services than many other Arab counties. Only in 2010 did they get access to a public bus system for the first time, a change that Israel’s Transportation Ministry announced with great fanfare. And that is to say nothing of the so-called unrecognized Bedouin communities, where more than 80,000 Arab citizens of Israel receive absolutely no public services (no education, no health no water supply, no sanitation, no electricity, no trash service). One would have to search carefully for the most deprived groups in other Arab countries in order to find destitution and state-sanctioned public neglect on such an intense scale.

    Comparing Palestinian Israelis to Jewish Israelis

    Of course, all the outcomes just described coexist with extraordinary privilege and wealth in Israel, which is an OECD country. How do outcomes for the Palestinian subgroup compare to outcomes for Jews? I highlight just a few:
    •Palestinian Israelis are live on just 7% of the land with high population densities due to de jure discrimination among land authorities in Israel.
    •55% of families below the poverty line in Israel are Palestinian Arab.
    •Average Arab salaries are 30% lower than Jewish ones, according to the Central Bank of Israel.
    •Average per-student allocation at Arab schools is 1/5 the Jewish average, according to Israel’s Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education.
    •Despite poor health outcomes, Israel’s health ministry allocated Arab communities in 2002 less than 0.6% of its 277 million shekel) budget to develop healthcare facilities in Arab localities.
    •Of the 55,000 people working in government companies, one percent are Arab.
    •From 1952 to 1972, proportion of total government budget allocated to Arab sector ranged from 0.2 to 1.5%. Rose to 4% in 2008.
    •Since 1948, approximately 600 new Jewish municipalities, but not one Arab one has ever been built.

    These figures show that relative outcomes for Palestinian citizens of Israel, when compared both to other Arabs countries and to the appropriate comparison group, is one of systematic, institutionalized relative deprivation.

    http://www.hybridstates.com/2011/05/arabs-live-better-in-israel-than-anywhere-else-except-not-really/
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Mar '15 13:35
    Originally posted by normbenign
    You are a well intentioned person for supporting the notion of a "two State solution", despite the obvious problems, one of them being that the Palestinian side doesn't want it. When the other side just wants the last Jew dead, where is the room for negotiation?

    I'm afraid that two State negotiations have about the same chances of success as the Gaza ...[text shortened]... Finland. It would make about as much sense as an Israeli homeland surrounded by bitter enemies.
    It never ceases to amaze me that you can make far reaching claims without ANY evidence to back them. In fact, ever single poll I have ever seen, as well as the stated policy of the Palestinian leadership, supports a two State solution. Here's a recently reported poll:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-most-israelis-palestinians-support-2-state-solution/

    I guess it's important to you to be willfully ignorant so as to demonize one group in preference to another. This seems to be typical of your positions on many matters.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Mar '15 13:36
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I believe your faith in human nature, and the will of the majority of ordinary people is justified. Unfortunately, it is the leadership that must change and that is to me doubtful. What I remember is the promise of the deal brokered by the Clinton administration, which on the surface was approved, but was almost immediately trashed by Yassar Arrafat,

    ...[text shortened]... ran. His stance mirrors Reagan's of the Soviets during the 80s, and is entirely understandable.
    It was Israel and more specifically Likud that violated Oslo hardly before the ink was dry on the agreement.
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