Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    29 Nov '18 13:413 edits
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/india-body-john-allen-chau-missionary-killed-by-sentinelese-tribe

    “An anthropologist involved in the case told the Guardian authorities had concluded that for now it was impossible to retrieve the remains of Chau without provoking further conflict with the Sentinelese, the small tribe who populate North Sentinel Island.

    “We have decided not to disturb the Sentinelese,” said the anthropologist, who asked not to be named. “We have not tried to contact them for the past many days, and have decided not to continue trying.”

    “He said it had been determined that any further efforts to retrieve Chau’s body carried an unacceptably high “possibility of clash between the outsiders and the Sentinelese”

    It appears that there are both matters of principle and matters of practicality that argue for not taking action against the tribe or to retrieve the body. In a way, this (in)action means we are acknowledging the sovereignty of the laws of the tribe, whatever they are, over their territory, something that would not be countenanced in the heyday of colonialism. This can be compared with the approach taken to the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, killed by Saudis in the Saudi consulate, which international law recognizes as Saudi territory.

    Does anyone here think more action is warranted in the case of the missionary? I doubt it. It seems like the situation is comparable to the obvious warning to mountain climbers that they may die and their body might not be recovered. They are entering a part of the “natural world” where the risks are entirely on them.
  2. SubscriberWOLFE63
    Tra il dire e il far
    C'e di mezzo il mar!
    Joined
    06 Nov '15
    Moves
    22185
    29 Nov '18 15:22
    So, in effect, the Sentinelese can be regarded as sub-human and therefore allowed to live outside of laws imposed upon the rest of humanity?

    It's a strange situation and I'm a bit ambivalent about it.

    Clearly, the young man was naive and mislead. But did he truly deserve to be murdered because of that?
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35854
    29 Nov '18 20:08
    @wolfe63 said
    So, in effect, the Sentinelese can be regarded as sub-human and therefore allowed to live outside of laws imposed upon the rest of humanity?

    It's a strange situation and I'm a bit ambivalent about it.

    Clearly, the young man was naive and mislead. But did he truly deserve to be murdered because of that?
    Like most of the indigenous natives in the Americas, do they have to be wiped out because they're unlucky enough to be discovered by a technologically advanced society?

    He entered their territory, and was therefore subject to their rules. Should we force them to submit to our rules? Wouldn't that be more along the lines of "regarding them as sub-human"?
  4. Joined
    24 Apr '10
    Moves
    14639
    29 Nov '18 20:13
    @suzianne said
    Like most of the indigenous natives in the Americas, do they have to be wiped out because they're unlucky enough to be discovered by a technologically advanced society?

    He entered their territory, and was therefore subject to their rules. Should we force them to submit to our rules? Wouldn't that be more along the lines of "regarding them as sub-human"?
    And yet everyone is pissed off at Saudi Arabia for breaking "our" rules.
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    29 Nov '18 20:171 edit
    @great-king-rat said
    And yet everyone is pissed off at Saudi Arabia for breaking "our" rules.
    Deliberately murdering a journalist is a violation of everyone's rules.

    The Sentinelese don't have tear gas to defend their borders; borders that they have made very plain the penalty for crossing. Try walking across the North Korean border so you can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens and see what you get.
  6. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    29 Nov '18 20:17
    @js357 said

    Does anyone here think more action is warranted in the case of the missionary?
    The killing should be investigated and, if found unlawful, the perpetrators should be tried in court.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    29 Nov '18 20:21
    @kazetnagorra said
    The killing should be investigated and, if found unlawful, the perpetrators should be tried in court.
    Ridiculous; the native culture of the Sentinelese shouldn't be eradicated because one man decided to violate Indian law and invade their area knowing the possible consequences. Indian police invading the area and rounding up "suspects" (who's language they can't even speak) would constitute genocide - it is virtually certain the Sentinelese would resist and lethal force would be employed against them.
  8. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    29 Nov '18 20:29
    @no1marauder said
    Ridiculous; the native culture of the Sentinelese shouldn't be eradicated because one man decided to violate Indian law and invade their area knowing the possible consequences. Indian police invading the area and rounding up "suspects" (who's language they can't even speak) would constitute genocide - it is virtually certain the Sentinelese would resist and lethal force would be employed against them.
    Those attempting to use lethal force or otherwise obstructing the investigation should be arrested and tried in court.

    What a strange argument to say that suspects should not be apprehended because they might violently resist arrest.
  9. Joined
    24 Apr '10
    Moves
    14639
    29 Nov '18 20:31
    @no1marauder said
    Deliberately murdering a journalist is a violation of everyone's rules.

    The Sentinelese don't have tear gas to defend their borders; borders that they have made very plain the penalty for crossing. Try walking across the North Korean border so you can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens and see what you get.
    Deliberately murdering a non-threathening person is also a violation of "everyone's rules".

    Or would you feel differently if the man in question had been a journalist?

    The only big differences between Saudi's and the Sentilese seem to be that a) there are big economic ties with SA and b) the Saudi's aren't being honest about what happened.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    29 Nov '18 20:501 edit
    @great-king-rat said
    Deliberately murdering a non-threathening person is also a violation of "everyone's rules".

    Or would you feel differently if the man in question had been a journalist?

    The only big differences between Saudi's and the Sentilese seem to be that a) there are big economic ties with SA and b) the Saudi's aren't being honest about what happened.
    "Non-threatening" to who?:

    "The Sentinelese have shown again and again that they want to be left alone, and their wishes should be respected. The British colonial occupation of the Andaman Islands decimated the tribes living there, wiping out thousands of tribespeople, and only a fraction of the original population now survive. So the Sentinelese (tribesmen's) fear of outsiders is very understandable," Corry added.

    According to him, uncontacted tribes are the most vulnerable people on the planet. "Whole populations are being wiped out by diseases like the flu and measles to which they have no resistance," he feared.

    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/why-american-missionary-s-contact-with-the-north-sentinelese-may-wipe-out-the-andaman-tribe-andaman-and-nicobar-islands-john-allen-chau/321890

    No, I would not feel any differently if he was a journalist.

    Your last paragraph is ridiculous; a primitive tribe defending its land from interlopers is hardly the same as a government murdering a journalist for political reasons.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    29 Nov '18 20:54
    @kazetnagorra said
    Those attempting to use lethal force or otherwise obstructing the investigation should be arrested and tried in court.

    What a strange argument to say that suspects should not be apprehended because they might violently resist arrest.
    It's hardly a "strange" argument to say that the Indian government shouldn't destroy the Sentinelese People just to try to enforce outside law on a People who never consented to it.
  12. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    29 Nov '18 21:06
    @no1marauder said
    It's hardly a "strange" argument to say that the Indian government shouldn't destroy the Sentinelese People just to try to enforce outside law on a People who never consented to it.
    If I don't consent to laws banning murder, is it okay if I kill you?
  13. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    New York
    Joined
    26 Dec '07
    Moves
    17585
    29 Nov '18 21:06
    @wolfe63 said
    So, in effect, the Sentinelese can be regarded as sub-human and therefore allowed to live outside of laws imposed upon the rest of humanity?

    It's a strange situation and I'm a bit ambivalent about it.

    Clearly, the young man was naive and mislead. But did he truly deserve to be murdered because of that?
    As Snoop Pearson said on The Wire, "deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it."

    He knew he was taking a chance. He took it. He got burned. The End.

    The Sentinelese plainly have no wish to enter into a societal arrangement with other people and they're not hurting anyone who doesn't trespass on their society. I don't think it's fair to bind them to Indian law just because India claimed the island and they're too weak to resist.
  14. Joined
    24 Apr '10
    Moves
    14639
    29 Nov '18 21:16
    @no1marauder said
    "Non-threatening" to who?:

    "The Sentinelese have shown again and again that they want to be left alone, and their wishes should be respected. The British colonial occupation of the Andaman Islands decimated the tribes living there, wiping out thousands of tribespeople, and only a fraction of the original population now survive. So the Sentinelese (tribesmen's) fear of ...[text shortened]... nd from interlopers is hardly the same as a government murdering a journalist for political reasons.
    It is only your opinion that it's "hardly the same". It doesn't make it true, at all.

    In both cases a man appears to have been murdered. Calling one of the murderers a "primitive tribe" saying their "wishes should be respected" (... or else...) really doesn't change the fact that they're murderers.
  15. Joined
    24 Apr '10
    Moves
    14639
    29 Nov '18 21:18
    @sh76 said
    He knew he was taking a chance. He took it. He got burned. The End.
    "She dressed up in a short skirt and went walking around the bad neighbourhood. She knew she was taking a chance. She took it. She got raped. The End."
Back to Top