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Debates Forum

  1. 22 Feb '15 11:09
    Stumbled upon this nice article that explains among other things tax inequality.
    http://www.taxjustice.net/2014/10/08/money-taxation-isnt-theft/


    The banker and the nurse do not work just as much or just as hard. They certainly do not make equal money. Is it moral to say they both get what they deserve? does the banker who takes care of your money deserve more than the nurse who takes care of you when you are sick?


    The answer lies in understanding that we don't earn what we deserve. We earn what society deems we should at a given time. we understand that not everyone can be bankers. we must also understand that society would crumble without garbage men and that they cannot live on minimum wage.

    as such, it IS fair to ask more of those individuals that were given more by society.
  2. 22 Feb '15 13:06
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Stumbled upon this nice article that explains among other things tax inequality.
    http://www.taxjustice.net/2014/10/08/money-taxation-isnt-theft/


    The banker and the nurse do not work just as much or just as hard. They certainly do not make equal money. Is it moral to say they both get what they deserve? does the banker who takes care of your money dese ...[text shortened]... wage.

    as such, it IS fair to ask more of those individuals that were given more by society.
    Is it theft to take tax payer money and bail out Wall Street?
  3. 22 Feb '15 14:39
    Originally posted by whodey
    Is it theft to take tax payer money and bail out Wall Street?
    Yes - so all USAlien conservatives are thieves, because the last single one of them is on the side of Big Business and Banks, even if they refuse to admit it.
  4. 22 Feb '15 15:00
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    The answer lies in understanding that we don't earn what we deserve. We earn what society deems we should at a given time. we understand that not everyone can be bankers. we must also understand that society would crumble without garbage men and that they cannot live on minimum wage.

    as such, it IS fair to ask more of those individuals that were given more by society.
    Although I agree with your conclusion, I think your argument is flawed. If society would crumble without garbage men, then we should consider paying garbage men more whenever we don't have enough people willing to do the job. But their necessity to society in an of itself is not a good reason to increase their wages.

    I am in favor of ideas such as a basic minimum wage paid by the government: but on general socialistic grounds, not because we need garbage men.

    The way to solve the banker/nurse discrepancy, is to:
    a) improve education so that more nurses can become bankers and you will be forced to pay nurses better and bankers less to get them to go back.
    b) change management systems so that it isn't always biased in the managers favour. I think the best way to do this is cooperatives. If everyone gets a say in how salaries are set, they will be much fairer. As long as managers set the salaries, managers will be the highest paid regardless of how much work they do or how valuable they are.
  5. 22 Feb '15 15:06
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Yes - so all USAlien conservatives are thieves, because the last single one of them is on the side of Big Business and Banks, even if they refuse to admit it.
    So taxation is theft depending how they use the money?

    Interesting.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Feb '15 15:12
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Stumbled upon this nice article that explains among other things tax inequality.
    http://www.taxjustice.net/2014/10/08/money-taxation-isnt-theft/


    The banker and the nurse do not work just as much or just as hard. They certainly do not make equal money. Is it moral to say they both get what they deserve? does the banker who takes care of your money dese ...[text shortened]... wage.

    as such, it IS fair to ask more of those individuals that were given more by society.
    People don't get paid what "society" deems proper (except in government jobs); they get paid what those with economic power deem proper (subject to any countervailing power of the workers).
  7. 22 Feb '15 18:21
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    People don't get paid what "society" deems proper (except in government jobs); they get paid what those with economic power deem proper (subject to any countervailing power of the workers).
    One could argue that society is run by those with power (often economic power, but that is not the only sort of power). When workers get together and use their collective power, then they can push the wages higher. When voters get together and vote sensibly, they can get politicians to raise the taxes on the rich, or raise minimum wage etc.
    The problem is that generally, money gives more power and those with money therefore give themselves higher wages.
    It can only be overcome by breaking the link between power and money. Democracy to some degree attempts to do this by giving each person an equal vote regardless of money. Cooperatives are a way to do something similar in the workplace.
  8. 22 Feb '15 20:07
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Yes - so all USAlien conservatives are thieves, because the last single one of them is on the side of Big Business and Banks, even if they refuse to admit it.
    Majority of Republicans? Absolutely.

    Just look at how many Republicans voted to keep Boner in place.

    All Conservatives? I'd say no.
  9. 22 Feb '15 20:08
    I'd say that if you take money in taxes simply to give to special groups taxation is theft.
  10. 22 Feb '15 20:27
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I'd say that if you take money in taxes simply to give to special groups taxation is theft.
    No, no, anything government wishes to do with the money they can do.

    How can you limit those who have no over sight, no accountability, and who possess all the power?
  11. 22 Feb '15 23:34
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Although I agree with your conclusion, I think your argument is flawed. If society would crumble without garbage men, then we should consider paying garbage men more whenever we don't have enough people willing to do the job. But their necessity to society in an of itself is not a good reason to increase their wages.

    I am in favor of ideas such as a ba ...[text shortened]... managers will be the highest paid regardless of how much work they do or how valuable they are.
    "whenever we don't have enough people willing to do the job. "
    at the moment there aren't enough high end jobs for all. someone will be left with not choice but to be a garbage man.

    "But their necessity to society in an of itself is not a good reason to increase their wages."
    no it is not. we should however acknowledge their effort and not belittle them by forcing them to struggle on the edge of poverty, to rob their children of a future.

    "I am in favor of ideas such as a basic minimum wage paid by the government: but on general socialistic grounds, not because we need garbage men."
    i agree. i put that example forward as reason why the "i earned my money, why can't you" way of thinking is flawed. we cannot all be bankers. some have to be garbage men. a banker must realize that he was lucky to become a banker, that many others aren't and one must give back to the society that raised him.


    "The way to solve the banker/nurse discrepancy,"
    this is where we diverge. i don't want to solve the banker/nurse discrepancy. there will always be jobs that are valued more and i believe it is ok.

    i want those fortunate enough to have sought after jobs to understand that stuff needs to be done and nobody else can help but them. i want the 1% to understand that the midgets from the 99% don't want to cut off their legs to bring them to their side, they simply need stuff from the high shelf and the 1% are the only ones that can reach.
  12. 23 Feb '15 08:59
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    this is where we diverge. i don't want to solve the banker/nurse discrepancy. there will always be jobs that are valued more and i believe it is ok.
    I am willing to accept some discrepancy, but I do not think a situation where the banker earns 1000 times more than the nurse is reasonable or fair even if we tax the bank much more. The fact is that the banker does not work 1000 times harder than the nurse, nor is his work actually that much more valuable to society. It is just that he has control of the money.
  13. 23 Feb '15 13:44
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Stumbled upon this nice article that explains among other things tax inequality.
    http://www.taxjustice.net/2014/10/08/money-taxation-isnt-theft/


    The banker and the nurse do not work just as much or just as hard. They certainly do not make equal money. Is it moral to say they both get what they deserve? does the banker who takes care of your money dese ...[text shortened]... wage.

    as such, it IS fair to ask more of those individuals that were given more by society.
    Do you support the Audit the Fed bill?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/23/us-usa-fed-audit-lobbying-idUSKBN0LR0DX20150223
  14. 23 Feb '15 14:20
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    Do you support the Audit the Fed bill?

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/23/us-usa-fed-audit-lobbying-idUSKBN0LR0DX20150223
    Nope, no one should question the Fed.

    The last President to attack the Fed, JFK, didn't fare so well.

    Attacking the Fed is like attacking the mob or drawing a silly picture of Mo.
  15. 23 Feb '15 14:57
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    People don't get paid what "society" deems proper (except in government jobs); they get paid what those with economic power deem proper (subject to any countervailing power of the workers).
    That is broadly true for gross wages, but in terms of net wages society has nigh-unlimited control.