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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 20 Apr '16 09:01
    How are you the land of the free? Free to conform to one of two ideologies that you don't agree and have become roughly the same anyway?

    3 million New Yorkers were not allowed to vote in either the Democratic or Republican primary. They are independents. They made a choice to not adhere to either party and it was their right to do so.

    Yet the system that makes it impossible for an independent to run made sure they don't get a voice in affecting who does run. Even a diluted democracy is still better and they didn't get that.

    Is any american here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?
  2. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    20 Apr '16 10:29
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    How are you the land of the free? Free to conform to one of two ideologies that you don't agree and have become roughly the same anyway?

    3 million New Yorkers were not allowed to vote in either the Democratic or Republican primary. They are independents. They made a choice to not adhere to either party and it was their right to do so.

    Yet the system ...[text shortened]... merican here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?
    You make a valid point. Excluding independents from voting goes against the core of democracy.
  3. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    20 Apr '16 11:40
    Originally posted by bill718
    You make a valid point. Excluding independents from voting goes against the core of democracy.
    Why should people who chose to be independents have any say in who a political party runs for office?
  4. Standard member vivify
    rain
    20 Apr '16 12:18
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    How are you the land of the free? Free to conform to one of two ideologies that you don't agree and have become roughly the same anyway?

    3 million New Yorkers were not allowed to vote in either the Democratic or Republican primary. They are independents. They made a choice to not adhere to either party and it was their right to do so.

    Yet the system ...[text shortened]... merican here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?
    Honestly, there shouldn't be political parties. That's the problem. The existence of parties divides the nation, and clouds people's thinking because it makes the issues a matter of "us" vs. "them", rather than about the candidates. Get rid of political parties, super delegates and the electoral college, and the U.S. will truly be democratic.
  5. 20 Apr '16 13:07 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    How are you the land of the free? Free to conform to one of two ideologies that you don't agree and have become roughly the same anyway?

    3 million New Yorkers were not allowed to vote in either the Democratic or Republican primary. They are independents. They made a choice to not adhere to either party and it was their right to do so.

    Yet the system ...[text shortened]... merican here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?
    T
  6. 20 Apr '16 13:22
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Why should people who chose to be independents have any say in who a political party runs for office?
    because these political parties have hijacked the electoral system. they aren't electing a secretary for the democratic hq in des moines. they are each electing one of only 2 choices for president of the united states.

    independents cannot reasonably hope to have a representative. Sanders was an independent who needed to run for the democratic nomination to stand any chance in the general election. At the very least they should have a say in electing who to run. They need to be included in the process and they have a right to.
  7. 20 Apr '16 13:32
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    How are you the land of the free? Free to conform to one of two ideologies that you don't agree and have become roughly the same anyway?

    3 million New Yorkers were not allowed to vote in either the Democratic or Republican primary. They are independents. They made a choice to not adhere to either party and it was their right to do so.

    Yet the system ...[text shortened]... merican here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?
    You seem a bit confused. Democracy is a system in which people vote for their representatives in the government. This does not necessarily imply they get to vote for who they get to vote for. Parties can come up with whatever rules they want for selecting their candidates. The (main) problem with US democracy is its two-party system, not the manner in which those two parties happen to select their candidates for elected office.
  8. 20 Apr '16 13:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    You seem a bit confused. Democracy is a system in which people vote for their representatives in the government. This does not necessarily imply they get to vote for who they get to vote for. Parties can come up with whatever rules they want for selecting their candidates. The (main) problem with US democracy is its two-party system, not the manner in which those two parties happen to select their candidates for elected office.
    it's not confusion, it's a realization that the two party system in america is impossible to change. of course it would be better if there were more parties, each with a clear ideology and a reasonable shot at running for office.

    right now a significant group of people don't have a voice because they refused to register to a party they don't agree with.
  9. 20 Apr '16 13:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    [Is any american here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?[/b]
    America was set up as a Representative Republic, not a democracy.

    The Founding Fathers were horrified at the prospect of a democracy.

    But I guess your teachers in public school never taught you this.

    But look at the bright side, they at least taught you how to put a rubber on a banana in sex ed class. Preventing reproduction is critical.
  10. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    20 Apr '16 14:07
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    How are you the land of the free? Free to conform to one of two ideologies that you don't agree and have become roughly the same anyway?

    3 million New Yorkers were not allowed to vote in either the Democratic or Republican primary. They are independents. They made a choice to not adhere to either party and it was their right to do so.

    Yet the system ...[text shortened]... merican here thinking that this is democracy? Why do americans put up with this antiquated crap?
    It's in the constitution? That's what they're always harping on about when it comes to guns. This is surely no different. How dare you suggest a couple of old geezers 200 years ago might be wrong!

    Anyways, why would the democratic or republican't party want non-members voting?
    Seems quite logical to me.
  11. 20 Apr '16 14:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    America was set up as a Representative Republic, not a democracy.

    The Founding Fathers were horrified at the prospect of a democracy.

    But I guess your teachers in public school never taught you this.

    But look at the bright side, they at least taught you how to put a rubber on a banana in sex ed class. Preventing reproduction is critical.
    "The Founding Fathers were horrified at the prospect of a democracy."
    not very horrified of the prospect of slavery though.

    you can think for yourselves, right? perhaps holding everything white slavers said or did centuries ago as awesome might not be such a smart thing to do.
  12. 20 Apr '16 14:25
    Originally posted by whodey
    America was set up as a Representative Republic, not a democracy.

    The Founding Fathers were horrified at the prospect of a democracy.

    But I guess your teachers in public school never taught you this.

    But look at the bright side, they at least taught you how to put a rubber on a banana in sex ed class. Preventing reproduction is critical.
    Today I was horrified at the prospect of eating dairy products. Then I had a cheese sandwich. Really felt like having one.
  13. 20 Apr '16 14:27
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    it's not confusion, it's a realization that the two party system in america is impossible to change. of course it would be better if there were more parties, each with a clear ideology and a reasonable shot at running for office.

    right now a significant group of people don't have a voice because they refused to register to a party they don't agree with.
    Over the course of human history, forms of governance have been amended frequently and there is no reason to assume the American two-party system cannot be abolished or changed.
  14. 20 Apr '16 14:57
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "The Founding Fathers were horrified at the prospect of a democracy."
    not very horrified of the prospect of slavery though.

    you can think for yourselves, right? perhaps holding everything white slavers said or did centuries ago as awesome might not be such a smart thing to do.
    I see, so ignore the bit about their concerns about democracy and move the goal posts to slavery. Whatever.

    Interestingly, one of the ways democracy originally flourished in Greece was slavery. With slaves, the slave owners had time to sit around and study and debate the issues they had to vote on. However, today the slaves vote who are largely uninformed partisan hacks like you.
  15. 20 Apr '16 15:10
    Originally posted by vivify
    Honestly, there shouldn't be political parties. That's the problem. The existence of parties divides the nation, and clouds people's thinking because it makes the issues a matter of "us" vs. "them", rather than about the candidates. Get rid of political parties, super delegates and the electoral college, and the U.S. will truly be democratic.
    Actually the system of personality cult presidents is the real problem. The party system and the idea of policy being more important than the individual is far better actual democracy than a system that merely elects candidates based on how faithful they were to their spouse or which email server they used recently.
    The real problem in american democracy lies in the lack of focus on local politics and issues with elections for the real law makers - the senators and members of the house of representatives, as well as judges, local state politicians, mayors etc.
    To be honest the US does better than many other countries, but not nearly as good as some European democracies that have a more proportional representation system where multiple parties can thrive.