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Debates Forum

  1. 04 Jun '09 09:16
    As far as "the states" are concerned I find it appalling that the main stream media has virtually ignored this heinous act by a muslim fanatic on a army recruiting office. Not to mention it took Obama 3 days to comment only after increasing ridicule.The murder of Dr. George Tiller equally as heinous,got a immediate response from Obama and the media is all over it.More proof of a extreme liberal bias in the american media
  2. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 09:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    As far as "the states" are concerned I find it appalling that the main stream media has virtually ignored this heinous act by a muslim fanatic on a army recruiting office. Not to mention it took Obama 3 days to comment only after increasing ridicule.The murder of Dr. George Tiller equally as heinous,got a immediate response from Obama and the media is all over it.More proof of a extreme liberal bias in the american media
    "Extreme liberal bias"? Spoken like the true non-partisan you claim to be?

    Couple of things.

    How many murders are there in the U.S.A. each year?

    About 17,500, yes?

    How many does the President of the United States of America comment on normally?

    When Googled I got 18,400 hits for William Long and 16,000 hits Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, a mixture of blogs, right wing American media and "extremely liberal" American media. I don't quite understand how it has been ignored? Can you explain.

    I have scanned as many as I could. But I can't find much information about his 'motive'. Lots of right wing blogs concede that he was 'crazy' and 'delusional'. So it seems to have been a rather ordinary murder.

    Does the fact that the killer was a Muslim make it more distressing to you? Or is it because William Long was serving in the military?

    Do you think this murder had the same or perhaps more significance than the murder of Dr. George Tiller? As I understand it, the murder of Tiller caused widespread outrage among the American public and this was reflected in the media. Despite 35,000 Google hits on Long and Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, it appears that there has not been the same widespread outrage among the American people and perhaps the media is reflecting this fact? Maybe most people see it as an 'ordinary killing', when they did not see the Tiller killing that way?

    You're there (in America). What's your take on it?
  3. 04 Jun '09 10:21
    Originally posted by FMF
    "Extreme liberal bias"? Spoken like the true non-partisan you claim to be?

    Couple of things.

    How many murders are there in the U.S.A. each year?

    About 17,500, yes?

    How many does the President of the United States of America comment on normally?

    When Googled I got 18,400 hits for William Long and 16,000 hits Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, a mixture o ...[text shortened]... e Tiller killing that way?

    You're there (in America). What's your take on it?
    On the ignoring.Ny Times Puts the Tiller killing on the frontpage and the other gets buried on page 16. ABC and CBS gave it no coverage. Its clearly a political issue,and bias.the NY times for instance clearly is pro-choice and appear anti-american military.(the pushing for the release of the abuse photos despite putting troops in more jeopardy) is gonna push the late term abortion doctor murder by the radical conservative christian.Failing to mention the doctor was one of only three in this country who does this procedure. I am not condoning his death by any means but am trying to show the way they spin it." Late term" is a hot topic so they are going to omit that fact but empasize on the "pro-lifer" "christian" and words like that. On the radcial muslim they wont refer to him by his muslim name that he goes by and say something like "the suspect may have been disgruntled towards the goverment and the military" Not, "radical muslim terrorist murders american servicemen and wounds another in Arkansas" Both are true, but the spin is obvious to me. As far as the president commenting, they were both terroristic acts and both should of got equal attention. They were not run of the mill murders.The Tiller killing caused more outrage because it was covered more not the other way around. Less out rage on pvt.Long because less coverage. There was nothing ordinary about either murder.
  4. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 10:39
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    ABC and CBS gave it no coverage.
    Google indicates otherwise. Plenty of hits.

    NY times for instance clearly is pro-choice and appear anti-american military.

    Anti-military? The NY Times helped facilitate the 2nd Gulf War, did it not?

    On the radcial muslim they wont refer to him by his muslim name that he goes by and say something like "the suspect may have been disgruntled towards the goverment and the military" Not, "radical muslim terrorist murders american servicemen and wounds another in Arkansas" Both are true, but the spin is obvious to me.

    Google shows that there are tens and thousands of hits for "Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad", his full 'Islamic name', including from your allegedly "extreme liberal" sources. And there are thousands and thousands of examples of the language you say you are not seeing ("..."radical muslim terrorist murders american servicemen and wounds another in Arkansas"..." ).

    There was nothing ordinary about either murder.

    Out of the 17,500 or so murders in the USA each each year, what do you find so extraordinary about William Long's murder?

    I respect your personal outrage in this case but why do you think Long's murder is not "run of the mill"? Was the murderer's "motive", whatever it was, in some way "more evil" than the motives involved in the other 17,499 murders in the last 12 months, hardly any of which your President remarked upon?
  5. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 10:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    CBS gave it no coverage.
    Oh? From 2nd June, right after the attack, it appears to have been one of CBS's top stories. Do you watch CBS? Or did someone who does watch it tell you it wasn't covered by CBS? Or did you read a far-right blog that said "CBS gave it no coverage"?

    Cops: Religion Fueled Army Office Slay
    Suspect Pleads Not Guilty In Attack On Ark. Recruitment Center That Killed One, Wounded One


    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/02/national/main5056232.shtml

    Just one example. There are heaps and heaps of others. Your claims against the coverage don't seem to add up.
  6. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 11:00
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    As far as the president commenting, they were both terroristic acts and both should of got equal attention. They were not run of the mill murders. [...] There was nothing ordinary about either murder.
    The murders are quite different, surely?

    Surely the Tiller murder touches upon a political and 'moral' issue that splits American society in a dramatic and fury-filled fashion? Significant groups have expressed support for Tiller's murderer.

    The murder of William Long doesn't touch upon any political and 'moral' issue that splits American society does it? Have any domestic American groups expressed support for Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad? It does appear to be an ordinary murder.

    And on what information is your use of the word "radical" based? I read that he converted to Islam in prison. But I don't see how you know it was a "radical" brand of Islam.
  7. 04 Jun '09 11:10
    Originally posted by FMF
    Oh? From 2nd June, right after the attack, it appears to have been one of CBS's top stories. Do you watch CBS? Or did someone who does watch it tell you it wasn't covered by CBS? Or did you read a far-right blog that said "CBS gave it no coverage"?

    [b]Cops: Religion Fueled Army Office Slay
    Suspect Pleads Not Guilty In Attack On Ark. Recruitment Center That K ...[text shortened]... There are heaps and heaps of others. Your claims against the coverage don't seem to add up.
    monday and tuesday abc and cbs evening news had no mention of it but had follow up stories on the other (tiller). nbc briefly mentioned it then went onto some how link bill o'reily to the tiller murder
  8. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 11:14
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    monday and tuesday abc and cbs evening news had no mention of it [...]
    Googling and scrutiny of their web sites doesn't bear this assertion out. Are you suggesting that ABC and CBS fabricated coverage retrospectively? I think not.

    Your accusation against the media seems shakey.
  9. 04 Jun '09 11:19
    Originally posted by FMF
    The murders are quite different, surely?

    Surely the Tiller murder touches upon a political and 'moral' issue that splits American society in a dramatic and fury-filled fashion? Significant groups have expressed support for Tiller's murderer.

    The murder of William Long doesn't touch upon any political and 'moral' issue that splits American society does it? ...[text shortened]... d to Islam in prison. But I don't see how you know it was a "radical" brand of Islam.
    the Long murder does touch on a political issue because i believe it was the first islamic terrorist attack on american soil since 9/11.as far as how do i know it was a radical brand of islam? Because I dont think main stream muslims commit terrorist attacks
  10. 04 Jun '09 11:22
    Originally posted by FMF
    Googling and scrutiny of their web sites doesn't bear this assertion out. Are you suggesting that ABC and CBS fabricated coverage retrospectively? I think not.

    Your accusation against the media seems shakey.
    I channel surf all news stations daily and Im telling you they didnt cover it at first. Unless you can show otherwise I stand by it
  11. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 11:33
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    the Long murder does touch on a political issue because i believe it was the first islamic terrorist attack on american soil since 9/11.as far as how do i know it was a radical brand of islam? Because I dont think main stream muslims commit terrorist attacks
    Why do you call it an "Islamic terrorist attack"? Isn't it a fairly straight forward murder, and possibly a hate crime? Has the word "terrorism" really come to mean nothing?
  12. Standard member Lundos
    Back to basics
    04 Jun '09 11:36
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    the Long murder does touch on a political issue because i believe it was the first islamic terrorist attack on american soil since 9/11.as far as how do i know it was a radical brand of islam? Because I dont think main stream muslims commit terrorist attacks
    This is from Fox News*: "He [Abdulhakim Muhammad] saw them standing there and drove up and shot them," Lt. Terry Hastings told The Associated Press. "That's what he said."

    So if one of the about 17.000** other murders in the US each is done by people, who turn out to be devout Christians, is that automatically Christian terrorism?

    * http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524139,00.html
    ** http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
  13. 04 Jun '09 11:37
    Generally the media doesn't like to give too much attention to violent crimes committed by people like Abdulhakim Muhammad. If the victims were black and the perpetrator white, it'd be national news for months and demonstrations all over the place.
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    04 Jun '09 11:42
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    I channel surf all news stations daily and Im telling you they didnt cover it at first. Unless you can show otherwise I stand by it
    Ok, fine by me. Simple Googling already picked holes in what you said in your OP but if you stand by your observations of what was screened on TV, I accept that.

    You think it should have got more coverage. That's a clear stance on your part. What I don't get is your claim that Long's murder and Tiller's murder are comparable. Abortion is highly divisive in the USA, is it not? What is divisive about Long's murder? He was killed by a delusional ex-con. Isn'that far more commonplace than the murder of an abortion doctor? How is Long's murder divisive?

    as far as how do i know it was a radical brand of islam? Because I dont think main stream muslims commit terrorist attacks

    There are 200,000,000 Muslims where I live and most murders here are carried out by ordinary mainstream Muslims. Nobody calls them "radical Muslims" becuase they murder someone. Just an observation.
  15. 04 Jun '09 11:47
    Originally posted by FMF
    Why do you call it an "Islamic terrorist attack"? Isn't it a fairly straight forward murder, and possibly a hate crime? Has the word "terrorism" really come to mean nothing?
    no. he specifically targeted them because they were american servicemen and he was getting revenge for the army killing muslims. There is also speculation many more attacks were planned.