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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Nov '16 13:11
    Everybody is going to want to pontificate as to what went wrong (or right, I suppose, depending on your view).

    So, here's my take:

    Elitism, or the perception thereof, doomed the Hillary candidacy. The election was obviously decided by an enormous turnout of disaffected working class white voters who are angry about the loss of manufacturing in this country. Michael Moore's infamous tirade now seems to have been prescient.

    For years, the white working class people who used to have stable jobs in textile or automobile or machine manufacturing and now are struggling, have been told that outsourcing and globalization are good and that they deserve to lose their jobs because they want a living wage and healthcare and that their jobs cannot be protected; essentially, that the US doesn't deserve a textile manufacturing industry because the workers don't want to live in dorms and work 72 hours a week for pennies. Then, they've been told that they are the beneficiaries of "white privilege" and that the few scraps that they do have were built on the backs of minorities. They've been beaten to a pulp both morally and financially.

    The media has also been telling them that their complaints are unworthy and that they're stupid for considering supporting a guy who has said and done a lot of things that, frankly, they don't care about. They're worried about their livelihoods, not about whether Trump bragged about grabbing some pussy.

    Anyway, everyone can scream racism or misogyny or xenophobia or whatever, but if we want to learn an actual lesson from last night's apocalyptic event, that might be a good place to start.
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    09 Nov '16 13:38
    You're overthinking this. It's actually quite simple.

    Hillary was a horrible candidate who a lot of people hated. Trump was a horrible candidate who a lot of people hated. Difference? Trump actually had people who loved him; Hillary, not so much. Trump had fanatical supporters; Hillary, not so much.

    And that made the difference. In a race where both candidates had a relatively equal amount of detractors, Trump had for more people who were passionate about him. It's that simple.
  3. 09 Nov '16 13:42
    Originally posted by sh76
    Everybody is going to want to pontificate as to what went wrong (or right, I suppose, depending on your view).

    So, here's my take:

    Elitism, or the perception thereof, doomed the Hillary candidacy. The election was obviously decided by an enormous turnout of disaffected working class white voters who are angry about the loss of manufacturing in this countr ...[text shortened]... learn an actual lesson from last night's apocalyptic event, that might be a good place to start.
    I believe that huge segments of our society find the concept of white privilege offensive and inaccurate. While Trump is often offensive and untruth (and he definitely is) people should understand that liberal discourse is offensive and untruthful too. And, if those are your choices, it's not surprising that the slight majority rejected the white privilege argument.
  4. Subscriber Proper Knob
    Cornovii
    09 Nov '16 13:44
    Originally posted by sh76
    Everybody is going to want to pontificate as to what went wrong (or right, I suppose, depending on your view).

    So, here's my take:

    Elitism, or the perception thereof, doomed the Hillary candidacy. The election was obviously decided by an enormous turnout of disaffected working class white voters who are angry about the loss of manufacturing in this countr ...[text shortened]... learn an actual lesson from last night's apocalyptic event, that might be a good place to start.
    The irony of course is that these white working class people have voted for the guy who has been making profits at the expense of American manufacturers for years.
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Nov '16 13:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    The irony of course is that these white working class people have voted for the guy who has been making profits at the expense of American manufacturers for years.
    His counterargument on that point: That he was just taking advantage of the rules as they stood for his own bottom line, but that he would change the rules if he could, is a very strong one. That #nevertrump relied on fallacious arguments like that and the tax return thing (which most people don't truly care about) gives one insight as to why they failed.
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Nov '16 13:56
    Look at the numbers out of the rest of the midwest.

    Indiana (won by Obama on 2008): Trump +20!!
    Missouri (not too long ago considered an excellent bellwether state): Trump +19!!
    Minnesota: Hillary will win by only 1-2 points; so close that it hasn't even been called yet
    Total runaways in Kentucky and WV

    Hillary actually seems to have overperformed in the west, but got absolutely trounced in the upper midwest.
  7. Subscriber Proper Knob
    Cornovii
    09 Nov '16 14:07
    Originally posted by sh76
    His counterargument on that point: That he was just taking advantage of the rules as they stood for his own bottom line, but that he would change the rules if he could, is a very strong one. That #nevertrump relied on fallacious arguments like that and the tax return thing (which most people don't truly care about) gives one insight as to why they failed.
    The counterargument to that would be - If he was genuinely concerned about the manufacturing industry in the US, as a multi billionaire, surely he could take a hit on 'some' of his profits to bolster manufacturing back home.
  8. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Nov '16 14:23
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    The counterargument to that would be - If he was genuinely concerned about the manufacturing industry in the US, as a multi billionaire, surely he could take a hit on 'some' of his profits to bolster manufacturing back home.
    It's unreasonable to expect any one individual to not act in his own best pecuniary interest within the applicable law. Heck, I think my income taxes should probably be a little higher, but I'm not going to write the IRS an extra check.
  9. Standard member checkbaiter
    By God's Grace
    09 Nov '16 14:29
    A record number of Evangelicals voted who had not voted in many years.
    Who knows if God did not bring this man for such a time as this?
    I know what the response will be here, but let me say this....God doesn't have any perfect people to work with. HRC is too rooted and grounded in her corrupt ways.
  10. Subscriber Proper Knob
    Cornovii
    09 Nov '16 14:46
    Originally posted by sh76
    It's unreasonable to expect any one individual to not act in his own best pecuniary interest within the applicable law. Heck, I think my income taxes should probably be a little higher, but I'm not going to write the IRS an extra check.
    You and me though are not multi billionaires. The Donald has more money than he knows what do with in this life time and the next ten. It's surely not unreasonable to think - 'Hey, I've got more money than i could possibly ever need, i'l take a hit on 'some' of my profit margins to give a bit back home'.
  11. Subscriber Proper Knob
    Cornovii
    09 Nov '16 14:48
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    A record number of Evangelicals voted who had not voted in many years.
    Who knows if God did not bring this man for such a time as this?
    I know what the response will be here, but let me say this....God doesn't have any perfect people to work with. HRC is too rooted and grounded in her corrupt ways.
    Who knows if God did not bring this man for such a time as this?

    Give it a rest you loony.
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    09 Nov '16 14:56
    Originally posted by sh76
    Everybody is going to want to pontificate as to what went wrong (or right, I suppose, depending on your view).

    So, here's my take:

    Elitism, or the perception thereof, doomed the Hillary candidacy. The election was obviously decided by an enormous turnout of disaffected working class white voters who are angry about the loss of manufacturing in this countr ...[text shortened]... learn an actual lesson from last night's apocalyptic event, that might be a good place to start.
    How does your theory square with the fact that Trump received almost 2 million less votes than Romney did in 2012?
  13. 09 Nov '16 14:56
    Originally posted by sh76
    Everybody is going to want to pontificate as to what went wrong (or right, I suppose, depending on your view).

    So, here's my take:
    I believe you are generally correct. I have for some time been expecting a backlash against the growing wealth inequality that is taking place world wide, but didn't really think people were stupid enough to think Trump was the best way to revolt. My faith in the average intelligence of people has taken a blow.
    What I find interesting is that I am yet to meet a Trump supporter that isn't at least most of: lying, xenophobic, racist, white male with a low IQ. So the question is whether half the US really is a basket of deplorables, or whether there are a lot of Trump supporters that have been very very quiet about it.
  14. 09 Nov '16 14:59
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    You and me though are not multi billionaires. The Donald has more money than he knows what do with in this life time and the next ten. It's surely not unreasonable to think - 'Hey, I've got more money than i could possibly ever need, i'l take a hit on 'some' of my profit margins to give a bit back home'.
    I have actually known a number of businessmen who have put time, effort and money into social causes.
  15. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    09 Nov '16 15:03 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    How does your theory square with the fact that Trump received almost 2 million less votes than Romney did in 2012?
    1. I'm looking at it in percentages relative to each other, not in raw popular vote. Third parties were stronger this year than in 2012.

    2. Trump outperformed Romney among white working class people in manufacturing states by a large margin, which is how he won the election. It was other areas and demographics, such as Latinos and the west in general, there he got hammered in the popular vote, which is the reason Clinton will edge him out in the popular vote in all likelihood.