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Debates Forum

  1. 27 Sep '17 23:38
    So from what we were told, the whole not standing for the national anthem was suppose to generate meaningful discussions about the ills of society? At least this is what Obama stated.

    If so, let's get it on!

    First off, there is racism and there will always be racism. Nothing will change this fact.

    Secondly, there are things we can do to reduce racism, but it's not a one way road.

    What we have in the US today is a black culture steeped in gang violence, drugs, and poverty. It is a self perpetuating fact. Here we have a small number of blacks that are responsible for the majority of violent crimes in the US.

    Now put yourself in the shoes of a police officer in that violent community. You will always be on your guard. If you lower your guard, you die, but if you "snap" and make the wrong move you get sued. How would you fair at that job?

    It is also true that blacks are profiled. Of course, middle eastern men are also profiled on board planes. Why? Is it because of racism? No, it's because most acts of international terrorism are carried out by such people.

    Last year, about 250 black men were killed by police officers, and guess what, those police officers were not all white. Now let's consider the violence in Chicago every year. Black on black violence accounts for more than double the number of blacks killed by police officers. Where are the protests about that? There are none to be heard. How is it that police are not suppose to kill blacks when they are killing themselves in such numbers? It is insane.

    What we are witnessing is America paying for the sins of the past, but to continually try to blame others for the problem instead of taking accountability for our own short comings is poison.

    What say you?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    28 Sep '17 00:22
    Originally posted by @whodey
    So from what we were told, the whole not standing for the national anthem was suppose to generate meaningful discussions about the ills of society? At least this is what Obama stated.

    If so, let's get it on!

    First off, there is racism and there will always be racism. Nothing will change this fact.

    Secondly, there are things we can do to reduce r ...[text shortened]... problem instead of taking accountability for our own short comings is poison.

    What say you?
    Virtually none of your assertions are true. Blacks are NOT responsible for the majority of violent crime in the US. For the last year full data is available -2013 - there were approximately 390,000 arrests for one of the four categories of violent crime - murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, rape, robbery and aggravated assault and about 230,000 of those arrested for those crimes were white.https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

    So you admit that blacks are profiled; you do realize that this means that the vast majority of blacks, who are not violent criminals, are treated differently because of some belief that they are innately more likely to commit violent crime. You may not call that "racism", but surely it is.

    I say you are very eager to support racist policies that do nothing to solve the problem of crime.
  3. Standard member vivify
    rain
    28 Sep '17 00:44 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Now put yourself in the shoes of a police officer in that violent community. You will always be on your guard. If you lower your guard, you die, but if you "snap" and make the wrong move you get sued. How would you fair at that job?
    That's irrelevant. If you choose to be a cop, you've chosen to face danger. If you don't have the mental fortitude to deal with such a job, don't work it.

    Why did you leave out the fact that white supremacy is alive and kicking? Why did you leave out the fact that the president was endorsed multiple times by the KKK, including being on the front page of their official newspaper? Why leave out the recent violence from white supremacists in Charlottesville? Why leave out the hatred from whites toward blacks, which is the root of what the NFL players are protesting?

    Why leave out all the blacks killed by white cops who were clearly not a danger to the officer? Why not mention Walter Scott, Eric Garner, or Philando Castille, who were killed despite posing no threat to the officers? Why leave out that despite video showing these black men were no threat, only one of those officers were convicted? Or that Eric Garner's killer wasn't even charged, despite Garner clearly saying "I can't breath", and despite the officer clearly using a BANNED choke-hold?

    To present such a one-sided view of race relations in this country is immoral. It's easy to criticize these protesters, when you pick and choose, and omit parts of the picture you want or don't want to be seen.

    Your actions are that of a racist.
  4. 28 Sep '17 01:33 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Virtually none of your assertions are true. Blacks are NOT responsible for the majority of violent crime in the US. For the last year full data is available -2013 - there were approximately 390,000 arrests for one of the four categories of violent crime - murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, rape, robbery and aggravated assault and about 230,000 of tho ...[text shortened]... say you are very eager to support racist policies that do nothing to solve the problem of crime.
    This is what I was looking at.

    https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bvvc.pdf

    Blacks were victims of an estimated 805,000 nonfatal


    violent crimes and of about 8,000 homicides in 2005. While

    blacks accounted for 13% of the U.S. population in 2005,

    they were victims in 15% of all nonfatal violent crimes and

    nearly half of all homicides. These findings are based on

    data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime

    Victimization Survey (NCVS) and the Federal Bureau of

    Investigation’s (FBI) Uniform Crime Reporting Program

    (UCR), Supplementary Homicide Reports.

    I think we can both agree that a violent culture cannot be a prosperous one.
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    28 Sep '17 01:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    This is what I was looking at.

    https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bvvc.pdf

    Blacks were victims of an estimated 805,000 nonfatal


    violent crimes and of about 8,000 homicides in 2005. While

    blacks accounted for 13% of the U.S. population in 2005,

    they were victims in 15% of all nonfatal violent crimes and

    nearly half of all homicides. T ...[text shortened]... micide Reports.

    I think we can both agree that a violent culture cannot be a prosperous one.
    The last sentence is an ironic one for a right wing American to say.

    You don't seem to have much problem with violence meted out by People wearing the costume of the State against Black Americans.
  6. 28 Sep '17 01:41
    Originally posted by @vivify
    That's irrelevant. If you choose to be a cop, you've chosen to face danger. If you don't have the mental fortitude to deal with such a job, don't work it.

    Why did you leave out the fact that white supremacy is alive and kicking? Why did you leave out the fact that the president was endorsed multiple times by the KKK, including being on the front page ...[text shortened]... parts of the picture you want or don't want to be seen.

    Your actions are that of a racist.
    No it is not irrelevant. Policemen are human beings and placing people in unworkable environments is inhumane. Is the goal not to have anymore?

    As I said, racism exists and always will exist. Would you say that the US was more a racist country after 2 terms of Obama than not a racist country, or is it just law enforcement and the legal system?

    What I do know is that power and money talk in the US legal system, as I'm sure it does everywhere else. Coming up against the government in a court of law, therefore, can be a rather humbling experience no matter the issue at hand.

    So what of the black police officers that shot black men? Are they uncle toms or did they deserve it in your estimation?
  7. 28 Sep '17 01:42
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The last sentence is an ironic one for a right wing American to say.

    You don't seem to have much problem with violence meted out by People wearing the costume of the State against Black Americans.
    So "right wingers" are all violent?

    In fact, what is a "right winger"?
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    28 Sep '17 01:46
    Originally posted by @whodey
    So "right wingers" are all violent?

    In fact, what is a "right winger"?
    You stated:

    I think we can both agree that a violent culture cannot be a prosperous one.

    However, popular American culture has always been violent. Therefore, the US must not have been prosperous according to you.

    I've explained the difference between the Right and the Left many times on this Forum. The term Right derived from the French Assembly where monarchists sat on the right. Right wingers despise democracy, wish to limit the power of the People, support repressive measures ("law and order", are militaristic, etc. etc. etc.

    You know, People like you.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    28 Sep '17 01:53
    Originally posted by @whodey
    So from what we were told, the whole not standing for the national anthem was suppose to generate meaningful discussions about the ills of society? At least this is what Obama stated.

    If so, let's get it on!

    First off, there is racism and there will always be racism. Nothing will change this fact.

    Secondly, there are things we can do to reduce r ...[text shortened]... problem instead of taking accountability for our own short comings is poison.

    What say you?
    Perhaps you could offer some evidence of this "Black Culture" of criminality that you claim exist. Researchers have found that blacks are far more religious than whites in the US:

    Researchers found that blacks scored higher than whites on seven of nine virtues. The results indicated that, compared to whites, blacks were more humble, more grateful to God, felt more compassion for strangers and were likelier to provide emotional support and tangible help to people they do not know.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    •Seven in 10 black Americans read the Bible outside of worship; just 44 percent of white Americans open Scripture on their own, the Bible in American Life study showed.
    •The 2012 General Social Survey found nearly half of blacks reported praying several times a day; just 27 percent of whites prayed with the same frequency.
    •Fifty-one percent of blacks, compared to 37 percent of whites, strongly agree that they have a personally meaningful relationship with God, according to the Portraits of American Life Study.
    •Fifty-nine percent of members of historically black churches reported attending services at least once a week; nationally 39 percent of Americans reported attending with similar frequency, according to the 2007 Pew U.S. Religious Landscape Survey.
    •The percentage of white religious “nones” — individuals with no religious affiliation — rose from 15 percent in 2007 to 20 percent in 2012, while there was no statistically significant change among black Americans, Pew religion surveys found.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A study analyzing data from the National Survey of American Life found that non-Hispanic whites are significantly more likely than African Americans to never attend services and to not have a denominational home.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-briggs/are-black-americans-the-m_b_6769296.html

    Is that the type of "Black Culture" you are referring to?
  10. Standard member vivify
    rain
    28 Sep '17 01:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    No it is not irrelevant. Policemen are human beings and placing people in unworkable environments is inhumane.
    When Michael Slager shot a black man in the back, *while that black man was running away*, was that cop in an "inhumane" environment? When Eric Garner was tackled, chocked with a banned technique, after saying "I can't breathe", even though he exhibited no violence whatsoever....was the cop who killed him in an "inhumane" situation?

    YouTube

    During the white supremacist march in Charlottsville, a white man opened fire on a black bystander, with cops watching just a few feet away. Guess what? NOTHING happened to him. The police just let him continue on his way.

    This is what people are protesting: clear-cut racism like this from cops.
  11. 28 Sep '17 01:59 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    You stated:

    I think we can both agree that a violent culture cannot be a prosperous one.

    However, popular American culture has always been violent. Therefore, the US must not have been prosperous according to you.

    I've explained the difference between the Right and the Left many times on this Forum. The term Right derived from the French Assemb ...[text shortened]... ssive measures ("law and order", are militaristic, etc. etc. etc.

    You know, People like you.
    All cultures have a degree of violence in them. Is it a coincidence that as America has become more violent it has waned economically?

    At some point, if a society becomes too violent, that drastic measures need to be implemented to restore civility. If a society has the morality of say, a prison population, then all that can be done is to build a wall around them and hire a warden.

    I have repeatedly said that a good moral fiber is the key to avoiding such a fate. People need to regulate their own moral actions by their own free will, or their freedom will be taken from them by the state in order to try and achieve a moral society.

    You, on the other hand, think such talk is stupid and seem to wish only to redistribute wealth to cure all our ills.

    As for democracy, the Founding Fathers were wary of it as well. Apparently, they were right wingers also? I have no issue with keeping the House elected by the people and the Senate elected by the state representatives, but you do it seems.
  12. 28 Sep '17 02:01
    Originally posted by @vivify
    When Michael Slager shot a black man in the back, *while that black man was running away*, was that cop in an "inhumane" environment? When Eric Garner was tackled, chocked with a banned technique, after saying "I can't breathe", even though he exhibited no violence whatsoever....was the cop who killed him in an "inhumane" situation?

    [youtube]0IN ...[text shortened]... tinue on his way.

    This is what people are protesting: clear-cut racism like this from cops.
    There are bad police, and there always will be bad police.

    How does that change the point I was making?
  13. Standard member vivify
    rain
    28 Sep '17 02:03 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    There are bad police, and there always will be bad police.

    How does that change the point I was making?
    It changes your point, because you're clearly missing the point.

    It's these "bad police" officers that NFL players and others, are protesting against.
  14. 28 Sep '17 02:15 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Perhaps you could offer some evidence of this "Black Culture" of criminality that you claim exist. Researchers have found that blacks are far more religious than whites in the US:

    Researchers found that blacks scored higher than whites on seven of nine virtues. The results indicated that, compared to whites, blacks were more humble, more grateful to ...[text shortened]... lack-americans-the-m_b_6769296.html

    Is that the type of "Black Culture" you are referring to?
    So it is a contest of who is a better Christian, whitey or blackey?

    No.

    I was looking at some pictures of the Civil Rights movement, and something struck me. Those protesting were respectful, they were well dressed, and their neighborhoods were not cesspools, And this was all before gaining their "rights". Plus some had a Bible in their hand.

    Looking at the protests in Ferguson, we saw just the opposite. We saw looting and rioting and destruction.

    The difference was, one movement accomplished a goal and the other did nothing but destroy their community.

    Gang activity is the driving force behind the violence and I dare say none of them give a damn about having faith in God.
  15. 28 Sep '17 02:16
    Originally posted by @vivify
    It changes your point, because you're clearly missing the point.

    It's these "bad police" officers that NFL players and others, are protesting against.
    Are they only bad white police officers?